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 Bug: V 2.3b crashes on HTC HD2 (Win Mob 6.5)
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rkalman
Falchetto

Hungary
175 Posts

Posted - 27/06/2011 :  19:16:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My test results on hd2:
Using recent master (from yesterday (2.3c0)) I get an "out of memory for waypoints" message when i change waypoints, but next startup no msg, just an out-of-memory condition as Kai experinces.
Using config menu 1.1 "exclude waypoints out of terrain" helps, then everything goes fine.

It seems to me I should do the same approach with airspaces, because in this test setup there are a lof of airspaces outside the terrain as well.
Maybe we should also add a "free memory" display to cpustats.

Best,
Kalman
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Kai
Falchetto

Germany
188 Posts

Posted - 27/06/2011 :  20:15:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for explanations!
I did not know that waypoint do eat that much space. I'll exlude waypoints out of terrain emmediately!
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Marco from Hangar 5
Pterodattilo

Netherlands
845 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2011 :  23:58:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kai

Hi Coolwind, what you can guess seems to be right. But why?

It is half of one MB and for any kind of hand held computer not a problem (And for those it is they can take smaller files). The advantage is that I always have the waypoints loaded I need and it cost less than 10 seconds to load. I would like to do that with maps like this so I would not need to take care if I fly in northen Germany or southern Alps.
At all it seems like if changing a map file something happens to the loaded waypoints (may be they get loaded twice?).

I'd like to know why LK is that restrictive with storage space.




Why on earth do you need 15 thousand waypoints?! Ridiculous. making a new waypoint file in SY desktop, and loading this new waypoint file in LK8000 is done in 30 seconds.. I allways load other files when flying in another region.. Once made you can keep them on your storage card, and load them back and forth in less then 10 seconds in LK8000 system setup.

So your reasoning behind it is trivial, maybe better to learn the ins and outs of LK8000 better, then this problem would not have been surfaced... well, its not a problem, you just went beyond the limits of winCE, that's all.

Marco
BU (PH-588)
Mini Nimbus HS7, s/n 039
http://www.zweef.nl/
Zweefvliegcentrum Noordkop, NETHERLANDS
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2011 :  00:45:19  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The only constraint is the memory, and expecially the memory management of Windows CE which is ugly. Technically, it is the heap space compactor which is not working in CE as it should. This means that you can load 15 thousands waypoint, but when you remove them from memory, not all the memory will be free again. This is affecting also terrain, of course, not only waypoints.
Ok, normally if you load 5 thousands waypoint you will be able even on MIO400 to unload and load other wps again. 15000 are a lot, but LK has no problems to deal with even more than 15 thousands if memory allows us. Only, changing waypoint file you will need to restart LK in this case.
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Kai
Falchetto

Germany
188 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  12:47:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The first reason for this comfortable but big files was that I did not know about this limits.
The second reason is: At one day I fly 350km to the north and at next flyable day may be 300km to the south. With the map size limitation I have do decide before the flight which direction I want to fly. This is why there exists the map file GER_BLACK_FOREST now. If I fly out of bounds of the map file I still have airspace and waypoints at the moment. That helps a lot.
If it is possible to free the heap and to allocate new heap while restart LK, shouldn't there be a way to free it while running LK?

Some years ago at university I was involved in programming a complex simulator for a mockup. We only loaded those parts of files (terrain, dfad, dtad etc) into heap that were around the position of the aircraft.

@Marco:
Your reply tells me that you are to much in hanger 5 instead of flying a glider, otherwise you probably would answer in a different way.
What I do not have to think about I can not make wrong (e.g. loading files pre flight).
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  21:01:12  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kai, the heap management does not work properly. Ever wondered why sometimes you must restart a smartphone with windows ce, or your old PC?
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Marco from Hangar 5
Pterodattilo

Netherlands
845 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2011 :  00:25:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kai

The first reason for this comfortable but big files was that I did not know about this limits.
The second reason is: At one day I fly 350km to the north and at next flyable day may be 300km to the south. With the map size limitation I have do decide before the flight which direction I want to fly. This is why there exists the map file GER_BLACK_FOREST now. If I fly out of bounds of the map file I still have airspace and waypoints at the moment. That helps a lot.
If it is possible to free the heap and to allocate new heap while restart LK, shouldn't there be a way to free it while running LK?

Some years ago at university I was involved in programming a complex simulator for a mockup. We only loaded those parts of files (terrain, dfad, dtad etc) into heap that were around the position of the aircraft.

@Marco:
Your reply tells me that you are to much in hanger 5 instead of flying a glider, otherwise you probably would answer in a different way.
What I do not have to think about I can not make wrong (e.g. loading files pre flight).




Yes, I am a lot in Hangar 5, because I work there :)

I just tried in SeeYou import waypoints (from the welt2000 waypoint database), just to make sure I am not talking BS.

When I chose all waypoints, except VOR's, NDB's, and unknowns. This are all airfields and glidersites, bridges, coolingtowers, big roadcrossings and what not, and all of western europe(spain portugal, france, benelux, Germany, Denmark, CZ, Austria, Poland, Italy and Switserland) I get about 8500 waypoints. An area of about 3000km from north to south, 2000 west to east.

Point made...

It must be easily possible to make a waypointfile of about 1000-2000 waypoints that covers the whole area where you fly, so loading files is not required.. Where I fly now I made a file of an aea of about 1000x1000km with airfields and glidersites only, and is now about 1000 waypoints, more then enough for me.

And this I do for every XC gliding vacation (three per year), for each location I make a new file, and of course this is done during preperations at home, not seconds before take off.

I do not fly much XC that is true, about 10 per year max. But I do it from many different locations and have now 12 year experience with it, worked with the old Garmins 92 and later pilot III, via SeeYouMobile to now LK8000.. so I do have my experience working with waypoints.. in the pilot III there is room for only 750 waypoints, so I did have to be picky what to load, and what not... Just something that is part of my preperations.

Marco
BU (PH-588)
Mini Nimbus HS7, s/n 039
http://www.zweef.nl/
Zweefvliegcentrum Noordkop, NETHERLANDS
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davesalmon
Pterodattilo

United Kingdom
1583 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2011 :  10:09:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I too find it difficult to understand why 15000 waypoints are needed. The official BGA list for the UK only has about 1200, 15000 should cover a good proportion of the known world. To state the obvious, the more you have, the longer it takes to find the one you want. I normally use separate files of 200/400 to cover the area I'm interested in.
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Kai
Falchetto

Germany
188 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2011 :  21:54:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, the facts are written and obvious.
The thread is not talking about a bug any more because hidden constraints are known yet.
It is not a must to have but a nice to have.
Commercial software and XCSoar do not have this limits.

@davesalmon: to argue read the thread please. We do not talk about the same thing. I have 200/400 waypoints close to the airfield. I fly for more than 30 years in gliders with more than 6000 flight ours, almost all of them cross country that makes the flyable area larger. Your scope may be enough for YOU within UK. Your scope is defenitly unsatisfying. Last saturday I flew to the south but I was not sure pre flight what to do (see http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=1946962). It is not indented to change files while flying, that is what Paolo wrote and I think like him
.
Last but not least: The thread was never about waypoint data in particular but on file limitations, please stay at the facts!
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Marco from Hangar 5
Pterodattilo

Netherlands
845 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2011 :  23:27:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, that is a big cross country flight, but how many waypoints do you use during such a flight? I start to understand you are using waypoints completely different then we flatland flyers do.

I have flown a 431km declared task, with only 4 waypoints, I think you used a lot more during your 677Km flight. Is this correct?




Marco
BU (PH-588)
Mini Nimbus HS7, s/n 039
http://www.zweef.nl/
Zweefvliegcentrum Noordkop, NETHERLANDS
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Kai
Falchetto

Germany
188 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2011 :  23:49:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me it is a tool to increase situational awareness, it is not only to have a turn point.
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2011 :  01:46:15  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kai, when you say "limit", you intend "limitation to reload waypoints when the waypoint file is huge".
Just to be aligned on the fact that on LK you can load 15 thousands waypoints, but then you will not be able to change a bit of them.

Concerning other software, even commercial: when you switch to page 2.x on LK you instantly get results, no matter of how many wps you have loaded. This functionality requires a complete different approach for waypoint calculations that simply does not exist elsewhere.
We might fix the memory leak, and we ought to do it for the future because I'd like to be able to load maps and topology dynamically. However, let's stuck to the point that loading 15 thousands wps will get you to page 2.x instantly on a 200Mhz CPU device such as on PPC2003.
Other software do not run anymore on such devices at slow speed.
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2011 :  17:16:58  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Turbo, I have enough. Do not come here anymore bothering me and this forum. Understood? Banned.
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2011 :  17:20:27  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have removed all messages, I am sure the Idiot will have a copy of them.
He has nothing else to do all day.
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