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bo.
Pterodattilo

843 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  12:02:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi John, and welcome to the forum!

Many thanks for the polars, this will come in handy!

I will try to answer some of your qustions

quote:
I am a bit confused as to the LK8000... it's a new version of XCSoar I guess? It's only for PNA's now and PPC are no longer supported? I read over at the PG link and they are testing it, but I can't determine on what hardware. What are they using to test this thing? I see the HP Ipaq 310 can be had for about $140 used.


Yes, LK8000 is a new version of XCSoar, sharing much of the fundamentals, but with a new approach to the graphical display and the use of the touchscreen (virtual keys). One reason for this is that most PNAs have no hardware keys, but this is also good for PDAs. LK8000 is for PDA, PNA and PC, so PPC is still supported. Most pilots still use PDAs, I think. But bigger and brighter screens are avaliable in PNAs these days, at a lower cost. ipaq310/314 and MIO Moove models are popular, but we are expcting new and interresting devices to come out any time soon.
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bo.
Pterodattilo

843 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  12:51:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
My thoughts on XCSoar / LK8000...
1. Airspace and moving map depiction. NEED to get close but not in restricted airspace. MOVING MAP with AIRSPACE is Number ONE.


Moving map and airspace display is included. New infoboxes for exact distance to airspace are being developed, but not implemented yet.

quote:
2. More custom NAV Boxes /INFO : Have lots of info on 5030 but displaying some on a PND would free up some 5030 slots. XCSoar covered it all well. (Arr Alt, Dist Rem, Dist around TP, Final Alt req, Sist to Home Wpt, L/D, Time, etc., etc.)


There will be configurable infoboxes in the lower "stripe" (navbox) for Cruise, thermal, finale glide and one custom stripe, in addition to some the most important information, that is already displayed overlaying the map.

quote:
3. PORTRAIT MODE. I fly UP the page and landscape on a moving map is no good at all. It must be PORTRAIT mode to allow me to "see" further ahead and less to my left and right.


LK8000 still supports portrait mode. The new PNAs may not support portrait mode, i dont know. But the benefit of a larger display with good resolution should make up for that. You can also set the position of the glider symbol. When using Track Up, set the glider symbol to the lower part of the screen for more forward field of view.

quote:
4. Routes and tasks with Start and Turn points as well as finish on the Moving Map.

Check! HG/PG task definitions will be implemented soon

quote:
5. MUST be able to quickly download saved .igc files or waypoints in a secure fashion so I can use it as my backup GPS in a Comp. Most guys fly with 5030 and a backup GPS. If I use this software on a PND it should be in a similar format to Garmin or flytec so it's secure and can be used as a backup to show proof of my flight if the 5030 fails.


Check, logs are saved in .icg format. But there may be restrictions. The LK/XCSoar logs are validated by OLC, but other organisations may reject these logs. The reason is that any software logger is less tamper proof than a closed logger system, such as a GPS, and they are therefore treated differently by IGC. But in the case of a partial Flytec log with overlapping LK8000 log in a comp, I guess there are good chanses the flight will be validated. Does someone else have any experience with this?

quote:
6. Would like to have "pages" such that page one displays X range scale, ABCD INFO Boxes.... Page two would be different and easily configured and selected. This all for quick display.


Check. There are lots of pages for info boxes, waypoints/landables etc. Some configurable, some predefined.

quote:
Basically I loved the XCSoar software but struggled with getting it integrated into my setup due to the PPC hardware. Using a HP 310 seems attractive because it has a GPS, a better display and is small enough. But PORTRAIT needs to be used and battery life must be addressed.


Please note that Paolo is adding support for the Flytec 5030 in LK. This means that you can benefit from vario and airspeed data, as well as the GPS fix. I dont know how to solve the hardware bit in a HG setup, but you should be prepared to find room for an external battery, as none of the PDAs and PNAs will be self sufficient for a proper (several hours) XC flight.

Maybe some of the car devices (PNA) have good mounts that could be used in a hangglider? But you should probably look to whats being used in gliders.

best regards
bo
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  13:55:26  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Portrait mode vs Landscape mode.
On PNAs, GPS antenna is on top, so you better keep landscape mode.
On PDAs, there are people using portrait mode in order to better look ahead. But they use North up display, making it completely equal to landscape. So the only good benefit is having portrait mode and track up. This reduces the number of pilots that really need portrait mode in PDAs.
With zoom levels I never had a problem in landscape mode this year, compared to portrait.
I guess it is a personal preference.

XCsoar does support perfectly portrait mode in all resolutions.
LK is more landscape oriented instead, although it offers the same functionalities also for portrait.
However, I can't do miracles on portrait devices since I count on a large screen for overlays and functionalities.
The best is to try and decide. Both modes are working.

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JFS737
Pulcino

10 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  17:30:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow,
quick and full responses. Thanks Bo and Coolwind.

GREAT news on getting the 5030/6030 fully incorporated. This will make LK8000 totally rock as the .enhanced GPS and vario data pass through will make a huge difference in it's usefulness and functionality.
It appears I'll have to be careful before moving to a PNA. I'll read here and make sure Portrait is available before I buy. One thought would be, if portrait is not available then I could put all the NAV boxes over to one side (left or right) thus allowing more vertical room for the map. I assume this would be possible.
I understand about software igc security. It's good that it is ready for the OLC.

Thanks guys and great work.

Do you want the other polars? I have maybe 4 or 5 more?

John
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bo.
Pterodattilo

843 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  18:11:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure John, bring on the rest of the polars!

The old "infobox view" from XCSoar is still avaliable in LK. And in fact, five boxes on the right is the default info box arrangement.
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  18:16:33  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, and you can switch to LK mode with one press on the screen, and be back again.
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nosbig
Pulcino

USA
25 Posts

Posted - 21/11/2009 :  22:31:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings JFS737,
Great that you found your way into the forum. Hopefully the news message that Davis Straub printed a few days ago in the 'Oz Report' about LK8000 brings more Delta pilots in here to see what is happening. Thank you for your polar information. I wrote to all of the Delta glider manufacturers for their polar data but only Wills Wing responded. So, yes please, if you have any polars for Topless and higher performing king-posted gliders it would be helpful.

Also, you mentioned concern about battery life on devices. There was a recent discussion in the General Support (LK8000) area on this that offered some great (and low-cost!) suggestions.

I am relatively new here too but my testing of LK8000 so far has been successful on an old Dell Axim X50 (with a Holux bluetooth GPS receiver) and a Navigon 2100 Max (found on Ebay in the $60-70 (US) dollar range). I'll be testing out a Mio C320 ($50-60 Ebay)) soon.
Interestingly LK8000 is extremely fast on the Navigon ... maybe 200-300% faster (or more)than the Navigon navigation software!
---> JG
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dfgeorge
New Entry

3 Posts

Posted - 24/11/2009 :  02:56:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,

A quick introduction, Im a hanglider pilot in australia, ive been using xcsoar on a PNAfor a while, i did the port of xcsoar onto a binatone sometime ago, which I think was the first PNA release (http://www.users.on.net/~dsg/HG/xcsoarX350.html), its come a long way since then. Ive just installed the latest beta

Here is the polar data I have used with xcsoar:

* litespeed s4 WinPilot POLAR file:
* from moyes web site
* MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s],
* Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
130,0,40.0,-0.9,60.0,-1.3,80.0,-2.5

* litespoot s4 WinPilot POLAR file:
* from moyes web site
* MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s],
* Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
130,0,38.0,-1.0,59.0,-1.6,80.0,-3.4

* shark 156 WinPilot POLAR file:
* from Garry's spreadsheet
* MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s],
* Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
120,0,27.0,-0.8,48.0,-1.5,64.0,-3.0

One feature that would be useful at some competitions here is to be able to put waypoints in UTM format. I have had to use my backup GPS to translate coordinates on lanunch, which is a pain.

Is it possible to turn the volume down?

Cheers,

Dave
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JFS737
Pulcino

10 Posts

Posted - 24/11/2009 :  04:09:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Name: TALON
Min Load (kg/m2): 9.0
Stall (mph: 19
a 16.19
b -13.72
c 3.76
1 (mph/fpm): 60/1103.1
2 (mph/fpm): 75/2123.33
3 (mph/fpm) 95/4060.50
Max L/D: 14.7
Wmin (fpm) 167.97


Name: U2
Min Load (kg/m2): 9.0
Stall (mph: 19
a 20.38
b -16.72
c 4.28
1 (mph/fpm): 60/1404.97
2 (mph/fpm): 75/2714.52
3 (mph/fpm) 95/5187.92
Max L/D: 14.2
Wmin (fpm) 167.46


These came with SeeYou. There is one for the Sport2 but it appears broken (Glide ratio is 4.4).

I made one for the combat but it's a bit high, and not validated.

Thanks,

John
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 24/11/2009 :  10:27:09  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Welcome Dave and everybody!
UTM grid coordinates are in the queue, they have been asked since time ago and I see no problems in adding them.
Audio volume: yes, actually there's only a "volume all the way up", I'll add the down also.
Otherwise, you can disable volume control and set it manually.

I am delaying the release of 1.18 because of new bugs in the calculation thread from xcsoar were discovered and need more checks after fixes.

But apart from time delay, there are currently no big problems.
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2009 :  16:14:47  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Update: all problems solved, I am checking right now a real delta flight recorded (NMEA) with a compeo. It is just like being there. Now, I need polars.
Otherwise Netto is wrong, expecially if I use the Paraglider polars at 85kmh hehe.
Can anyone experienced provide me the first bunch of delta polars we can include in the 1.18?
Bo, Tiguy, can you take care of this? I am actually after menu buttons, getting better and better the user interface.
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo

Portugal
1864 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2009 :  18:42:36  Show Profile  Visit parapenT1sta's Homepage  Click to see parapenT1sta's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I will try to get them as soon as possible!

I wish we could have some site like www.para2000.org for hand gliders, I followed the new wings to create the polars for paragliding.
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo

Portugal
1864 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2009 :  00:04:02  Show Profile  Visit parapenT1sta's Homepage  Click to see parapenT1sta's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I tried to do my best! I'm not a Hanglider Pilot. I put the wings by USHPA classification.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZJR1LOYP
quote:
*Delta USHPA 2 WinPilot POLAR file: MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s], Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
100, 0, 30, -1.10, 44.3, -1.52, 58, -3.60


quote:
*Delta USHPA 3 WinPilot POLAR file: MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s], Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
100, 0, 37, -0.95, 48.1, -1.15, 73, -3.60


quote:
*Delta USHPA 4 WinPilot POLAR file: MassDryGross[kg], MaxWaterBallast[liters], Speed1[km/h], Sink1[m/s], Speed2, Sink2, Speed3, Sink3
100, 0, 37, -0.89, 48.30, -1.02, 76.5, -3.3


Edited by - parapenT1sta on 13/12/2009 00:04:49
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bo.
Pterodattilo

843 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2009 :  11:36:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seems like you have done a good job with the polars. Did you use the seeyou polas that has been posted in this thread? Im not sure if the USHPA classification is the most appropriate categorisation, at least I havent heard of it before (but Im not a delta pilot..). I agree that we should not use manufacturer and model names, categories should be enough, at least for now.

Delta pilots: Can you verify that the polars are reasonable? Please also tell if another nomeclature should be applied fot the categories (beginner-intermediate-topless-performance-category xx....)?
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 13/12/2009 :  13:40:45  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes please, take your time to check everything, I am working on menu buttons now, so I'll add these polars by wednesday. All polars sent me by bo and tiguy will be added.
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