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 LK8000 International Support
 General Support
 LK8000 as valid flight recorder for Cat 1
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danielvelez
Falchetto

Colombia
107 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2018 :  22:53:20  Show Profile  Visit danielvelez's Homepage  Click to see danielvelez's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Hello there.

I´ve read a lot of intense topics about IGC validation, and I´m aware that it´s a sensitive issue.

Anyway, a few things:

If you go to https://www.fai.org/sport/paragliding?upcoming=1&f%5B0%5D=fai_event_year%3A2018, that´s the main fai site for paragliding, as of today you will find that there´s a new published list of valid loggers:

https://www.fai.org/news/approved-instruments-list-published-civl-website

It does not show on "news" for Hanggliders but I´m guessing it applies too.

Anyway, the list is somehow lost at the momment (can´t access it anymore) but a few hours ago I managed to download the pdf and it stated that LK8000 is not allowed because is missing the developer declaration...

Now i see that maybe the "declaration" is something as simple as what Naviter has done here:

http://vali.fai-civl.org/documents/CAT1RecorderConformity_Naviter_Oudie_Hyper.pdf

So maybe, if the Coolwind or any other developer can verify that "lk8000" checks as of stated on the declaration, then maybe we can validate the software for CAT 1 Competitions.

The issue is that we fly in CAT 1 events with provided standalone trackers nowadays, and we get scored mainly with them, but it would be really nice to know that our personal igc track recorded by our flying software can act as a valid backup in case the provided tracker would be faulty or mess something up.

I´m one of the "don´t really care" hangglider pilots out there, and as a scorekeeper on local cat 2 events, I will always allow a IGC file without too much messing around. If someone wants to take the time and effort to cheat on a hanggliding or paragliding meet, then be my guest, as it has to be a much better hacker than a pilot to acomplish a "fake" flight on a daily basis before we close tracklog reception...

So just take a look at the requirement.. if it´s as simple as a declaration, heck it´s easier than any line of code that you guys have put into the software!

By the way, the current IGC logs created by android version are validated ok when checked on http://vali.fai-civl.org/validation.html

danielvelez
Falchetto

Colombia
107 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2018 :  02:57:47  Show Profile  Visit danielvelez's Homepage  Click to see danielvelez's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Instruments accepted for FAI Category 1 competitions
10 July 2017

Brand Model(s)
Software/
firmware
versions Group Status Reason
Aircotec TopNavigator all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Aircotec XC-Trainer
(all other models except MXP) all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Aircotec XC-Trainer MXP all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record GPS altitude
Ascent h1 all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record GPS altitude
Ascent h2 all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Bräuniger Compeo >= 2.27 2 Accepted
Bräuniger Competino >= 1.22 2 Accepted
Bräuniger IQ Basic GPS >= 1.3.07 2 Accepted
Bräuniger IQ Compeo+ >= 3.38m 1 Accepted
Bräuniger IQ Competino+ >= 3.10r 1 Accepted
Bräuniger Sensbox >= 3.02 1 Accepted
Compass C-Pilot Evo all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Compass C-Pilot Pro all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Compass Easy Pilot all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Digifly AIR >= 501 3 Accepted
Digifly Leonardo Plus all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Digifly Leonardo Pro all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Flymaster B1 NAV all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Flymaster F1 module all 3 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Flymaster GPS >= 2.02a 1 Accepted
Flymaster GPS SD >= 2.02a 1 Accepted
Flymaster GPS SD + >= 2.02a 1 Accepted
Flymaster LIVE >= 1.07a 1 Accepted
Flymaster LIVE SD >= 1.07a 1 Accepted
Flymaster LIVE SD 3G >= 2.02a 1 Accepted
Flymaster Tracker >= 2.02a 1 Accepted
Flymaster NAV >= 1.07a 1 Accepted
Flymaster NAV SD >= 1.07a 1 Accepted
Flynet XC all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Flytec 5020 >= 1.22 2 Accepted
Flytec 5030 >= 2.27 2 Accepted
Flytec 6015 >= 1.3.07 2 Accepted
Flytec 6020 >= 3.10r 1 Accepted
Flytec 6030 >= 3.38m 1 Accepted
Flytec Connect 1 17 1 Accepted
Flytec Element Track all 1 Accepted
Flytec SensBox >= 3.02 1 Accepted
GARMIN models with pressure sensor all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude;
doesn't record GPS altitude;
GARMIN models without pressure sensor all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
LK-8000 Android phones with pressure
sensor
all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the developer
Mycloudbase
Tracker
Android phones with pressure
sensor
>= 8.01 1 Accepted
Naviter Oudie 3 all 1 Accepted
Naviter Oudie 3+ all 1 Accepted
Naviter Oudie 4 all 1 Accepted
Naviter Oudie 4 Basic all 1 Accepted
Renschler CoMo all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record GPS altitude
Renschler SOL all 3 NOT accepted Doesn't record GPS altitude
Reversale VGP Competition all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Sky Bean Sky Drop >= 3820 1 Accepted
SKYTRAXX 2.0 all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
SKYTRAXX 2.0 PLUS >= 1.75 1 Accepted
SKYTRAXX 3.0 >= 3.0.8 1 Accepted
SKYTRAXX VARIO all 1 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
Syride SYS'GPS V1 and V2 all 1 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
Syride SYS'GPS V3 < 3.2 1 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
Syride SYS'GPS V3 >= 3.2 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Syride SYS'NAV V1 and V2 all 1 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
Syride SYS'NAV V3 < 3.16 1 NOT accepted Doesn't record ICAO ISA altitude
Syride SYS'NAV V3 >= 3.16 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the manufacturer
Vertica V2 with pressure sensor LK-8000 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the developer
Volirium P1 17 1 Accepted
XCSoar Android phones with pressure
sensor
all 1 NOT accepted No declaration from the developer
XCTrack Android phones >= 0.6 1 Accepted
XC Tracer XC Tracer all 1 Accepted

Group descriptions:
1 - Instrument generates and signs IGC file from recorded flight data on internal file system; The file system is accessible
through standard USB Mass Storage Device.
2 - Instrument generates and signs IGC file from recorded flight data; The file is accessible through serial port by PC
software.
3 - Instrument stores flight data on internal memory; The data is accessible through serial port; IGC file is generated from
the data and signed by PC software.
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Mtbrider
Pulcino

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2018 :  17:56:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So does an android phone, with it's internal pressure sensor, count as suitable for IGC validation? I have Oudie recorder and LK8000 running but neither appear to offer IGC validation.
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danielvelez
Falchetto

Colombia
107 Posts

Posted - 16/07/2018 :  04:23:53  Show Profile  Visit danielvelez's Homepage  Click to see danielvelez's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mtbrider

So does an android phone, with it's internal pressure sensor, count as suitable for IGC validation? I have Oudie recorder and LK8000 running but neither appear to offer IGC validation.



Ok. The Fai list is up again on the website:

https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/civl/documents/cat_1_instruments_e2018-07_bw.pdf

This states that neigher LK8000 or XCSoar (best all-round flying apps, well developed and tested) are accepted because of the lack of a declaration from developers.

On the other side, xctrack is accepted on the list without any notes... but on the app, you can see that it says that it needs internal barometer on the android to be "FAI CAT 1 Certified"... No external baro input is allowed.

And there´s one big "miss" on the list: GPSDUMP for android as a logger, that is the default app for downloading tracks on pc with signature and everything, and that has a logger and everything on the android app, now seems to be left out of the list without any comments...

Alt-Air was on the first 2016 list, but now is gone also.

This is a downdraft for android flying.

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AlphaLima
Moderator

Germany
1488 Posts

Posted - 16/07/2018 :  09:10:46  Show Profile  Visit AlphaLima's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

or XCSoar (best all-round flying apps, well developed and tested)


With all respect, if this is your impression, why don't you use XCS*** and stop posting this forum about IGC and Fake Flarm issues all not related to LK8000?
Do you really think to encourage us working for you, this way?
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danielvelez
Falchetto

Colombia
107 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  15:29:37  Show Profile  Visit danielvelez's Homepage  Click to see danielvelez's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlphaLima

quote:

or XCSoar (best all-round flying apps, well developed and tested)


With all respect, if this is your impression, why don't you use XCS*** and stop posting this forum about IGC and Fake Flarm issues all not related to LK8000?
Do you really think to encourage us working for you, this way?



You got me wrong...

I'm saying that both LK8000 and XCSOAR are the most developed and think throught apps out there, with a lot of active pilots involved on the development and so they should be allowed on CAT 1 events.

I personally preffer lk8000 over any other app, and because of that, is that I'm so into "sending" feedback and requests... My only intention is to help improve the software, not to complain about it. I really appreciate the work you guys put into this app.

So I apologize if that was not how i have been participating on the forum. If you think that my posts are way out of subject or that they don't address real issues, then I will try my best to "ask" before posting.

So back on this matter, what I'm trying to say is that LK8000 should be recognized as a "good enought" recorder by the FAI. And that maybe we only need a developer signed declaration on some of the capabilities of the IGC recorder to make this thing happen.



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brunotl
Aquila imperiale

France
531 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  18:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
after reading CIVL requirement documentation, some update is needed in software, i will look for that this winter, no time before.
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danielvelez
Falchetto

Colombia
107 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  21:32:41  Show Profile  Visit danielvelez's Homepage  Click to see danielvelez's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Thanks.
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Mtbrider
Pulcino

United Kingdom
10 Posts

Posted - 18/07/2018 :  19:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I carry an FR300 as well as using LK8000 on Android, so the FR300 does some of the FAI certification (for badge flights only though) and as a back up logger.
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