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 FMC zones in Italy (but Italy is not alone)
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maxb
Pulcino

22 Posts

Posted - 29/05/2018 :  11:54:14  Show Profile  Visit maxb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nex June 2018 will se the introduction in Italy of FMC zones (something very similar to what happens in UK too). Fying in that zone means that you have to insert a specific transponder code and listening on the radio on a specific frequency, so that CTA may understand that an aircraft flying there may be easily contacted if necessary.

Basically they are TMZ zones, but defining ghem both as "G" airspace, or "TMZ" airspace (in the OpeAir airspace definition file) results in a warning definig them as "NO FLY" zone, which is not true.

AmI interpreting wrongly how to define them, or is it there something incorrect in showing them by LK8000? (this kind of airspace is growing everywhere, I think is an argument which need to be faced)

What do you think about?

Regards,

massimo

BravoLima
Falchetto

Netherlands
143 Posts

Posted - 29/05/2018 :  12:39:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think you are making a mistake by giving 1 airspace definition 2 classifications. You have to make 2 seperate airspace definitions and give each the appropriate classification.

example:
airspace ABCD is a TMA with classification E but a FMC (Frequency Monitoring Code) is used as well for the same airspace. Then you have to make an airspace definition for airspace class E, copy the definition and insert TMZ as classification for the second airspace:

AC E
AN TMA ABCD

and

AC TMZ
AN TMA ABCD

If you always fly with an activated transponder you can set the airspace filter for TMZs to Display only. You will then no longer receive a warning for TMZs.

https://nats.aero/blog/2017/07/listening-squawk-monitor-code-frequency-monitor-code-heres-lowdown-use/

Edited by - BravoLima on 29/05/2018 14:12:12
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maxb
Pulcino

22 Posts

Posted - 29/05/2018 :  23:44:27  Show Profile  Visit maxb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I understand your view, but these FMC zones are specifically defined in uncontrolled airspace, so there are not double definitions (FMC zones does not belong to other airspaces too)

The document describing them is https://www.enav.it/enavWebPortalStatic/AIP/AIP/publications/documents/AIC_A_2018_05.pdf (you need to be registered to Italian AIP to get it, but it is free. I may also send it to you, if you provide me aplace where to put/send it).

The AIC explanation specifically states:

[...]
This AIC contains information about the implementation of Frequency Monitoring Codes (FMC) procedure in
defined areas, inside Italian uncontrolled airspace.

[...]

[...]
...Selection of Frequency Monitoring codes does not imply the provision of any form of Air Traffic Service ...
[...]

So it is correct that entering in that area must be made evident to the pilot, but not as a "no fly zone", as it seems to be when you enter in a zone which is defined in LK8000 as G or TMZ.

Thanks for your interest and help.

Edited by - maxb on 30/05/2018 08:40:36
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davesalmon
Pterodattilo

United Kingdom
1448 Posts

Posted - 30/05/2018 :  10:30:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have one (as far as I know) similar thing in the UK. A club and close busy airfield have established a Radio Advisory Zone. An RAZ, which is not an official designation, rather than a RMZ which is an official designation. So again in this Class G you are asked to make radio contact. The only way to treat it at the moment is to make it an RMZ.
It is certainly not a "no fly" zone, nor for that matter is a RMZ. I would not be surprised to see more, although we glider pilots are reluctant to use radio, it does seem to be fairly sensible to let busy airfields know that you are there.
Ulli's radio interface seems to be an excellent way of making this simpler.
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AlphaLima
Moderator

Germany
1462 Posts

Posted - 30/05/2018 :  12:57:37  Show Profile  Visit AlphaLima's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, we have it similar where I fly (Niederrhein Germany). It is defined as a TMZ with a required squawk 6101 and "must listen" to radar 128.500Mhz.
The DFS and OpenAIP have defined it as a TMZ airspace with the swquawk and the frequency in the airspace name, works quit good for all pilots here. Defining 2 airspaces for this is too confusing for sure.
With the frequency in the name and the LK8000 radio interface it is one click to set the frequency. I use to set it as the Standby frequency in dual mode.
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maxb
Pulcino

22 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2018 :  22:16:24  Show Profile  Visit maxb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, now that everybody agrees that these zones are NOT no-fly zones (and in Italy on the contrary of the others countries, you're requested just to listen the specific freqency and not forced to have a bidirectional radio contact), would be possible to modify LK8000 in order not to display them, as it happens now, as "no fly zone" (which is wrong)?
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AlphaLima
Moderator

Germany
1462 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2018 :  22:26:49  Show Profile  Visit AlphaLima's Homepage  Reply with Quote
per definition it is "no fly zones" unless you get yourself permission by radio (and squwak).

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davesalmon
Pterodattilo

United Kingdom
1448 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2018 :  23:59:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not in the UK, you bare requested to make contact only, as far as I know, entry cannot be refused. Similarly with RMZ, however with them you must make contact, but again as far as I know entry cannot be refused. So in both cases they are not no fly zones.
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AlphaLima
Moderator

Germany
1462 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2018 :  08:02:19  Show Profile  Visit AlphaLima's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The difference between Fly / No Fly in LK is mainly the time of warning while flying in or out of the zone.
However, the airspace warning reminds you to change the frequency (and set the appropiate Squawk) "before" flying into the zone. At least, this is what I like to have.
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maxb
Pulcino

22 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2018 :  23:44:33  Show Profile  Visit maxb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As told, here in Italy these zones are classified as "G" (so no problem in flying there), just you need to set a specific squawk and listening to a specific frequency (the squawk code means to the CTA that you're listening on the specific frequency, so they can call you being sure that you will get the message).

So, basically, can LK8000 be modified in order to list these zones (or introduce a new specific type called FMC, maybe this would be even better), so that it is not classified as no-fly, but just produce a warning message in order to remind you to set the transponder and the radio frequency? Any good soul developer which may add this feature to LK8000?
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AlphaLima
Moderator

Germany
1462 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2018 :  00:05:32  Show Profile  Visit AlphaLima's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by maxb

As told, here in Italy these zones are classified as "G" (so no problem in flying there)



Yes and we do have exactly the same here since two years, the only difference is, it is defined as TMZ instead of Class G.

But it is a problem flying into these zones as long you don't set the appropriate squwak and/or frequency!

So the procedure is:
-nearing this zone
-you get a warning to be reminded to set the squwak and frequency.
Now you can either:
-acknloage the warning (e.g. for 30min, as you leave the zone soon)
or
-disable this airspace.(as it is no longer an issue)
or
-set it as a "fly in" (e.g. to get reminded to change back the frequency on leaving the zone)

(We use to take the first option as we normaly cross this sections in less than 30min.)

So, what is your problem with this procedure?
-It is good practice here since 2 years-

By the way, LK does not have "No Fly" zones.
We have
"FLY OUT" get warning before entering this zone
"FLY IN" get a warning before leaving this zone
I'm afraid I don't understand what you want to achive.

Edited by - AlphaLima on 07/06/2018 22:34:00
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maxb
Pulcino

22 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2018 :  22:10:53  Show Profile  Visit maxb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello
I did not look at the problem from your point of view, acting as you suggest. Probably the fact thalt basic ULM (basic and advanced ULM are categories which exists in Italy only) may enter in these zones (keeping a lower altitide, even without xpndr) drove me away about the interpreatation of no fly zone.

I'll check this better and thanks for the help.

massimo

Edited by - maxb on 07/06/2018 22:11:42
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