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ToninoTarsi
Falchetto

Italy
113 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  09:28:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,

As you probably noticed XCSoar is just working now in a new feature they call “Cloud”. This is not a new idea as LiveTrack24.com introduces it, on their Mobile APP and developer’s API, a lot of years ago. Unfortunately the LiveTrack24 mobile APPs looks to be discontinued and they rely now only on third party applications using their API.

I’m the developer of one this party applications ( https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tony.ttlivetrack24v2 ) and I’m on my way of implementing “Radar” functionality to it.

I think it would be nice to have such a feature also in LK8000. If you think this is interesting I can try forking a new branch for working on it.

My idea would be :

1) Add an option on the “pilot menu” to enable/disable it and choose the radar max distance ( or maybe choosing this distance according to current map zoom )
2) Implementing the server communication. I already have java code to be translated.
3) Implement main map display with information of pilots in the area. For this I think I will follow what has been already done with FLARM and may be some help from other developers that worked on this will faster the development.

Let me know your opinion on this.

Tony

www.VoloLiberoMonteCucco.it

Edited by - ToninoTarsi on 20/09/2016 09:35:13

brunotl
Pterodattilo

France
1090 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  10:43:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

XCSaor Cloud is not tracking system like livetrack24, it's real time thermal database ...
your idea about radar is more like Skylines i think.

my point of view is simple :

for tracking, today we use livetrack24 API V1, and this don't allow too upload more thean one point by http request, so when track point is buffered because you don't have network, it's too long to send this point when network is back (30min/2sec interval/300ms ping -> 4,5min), this problem is fixed with API V2...

for real time thermal database, the idea is very interesting, but for have usefull system, every one need to use the same server, if each software/device have is own system, the system is dead before born..


So for tracking system and "flarm like" radar, we need :
- update our livetracking implementation for use API V2, or implement support of another traking system ( skylines, airtribunes, loctome, osmAnd ... )
- use abstract layer on hight level http library like Curl for linux and Wininet for Win32 for http request instead of our hand make http protocol implementation based on native socket...

for "XCSoar Cloud" system we need to use XCSaor Cloud server and API.






Edited by - brunotl on 20/09/2016 10:44:10
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ToninoTarsi
Falchetto

Italy
113 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  11:23:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes Bruno. You are right. I did not deeply analyzed “Cloud” that in effect is something different.

I’m talking of a “Radar - flarm like” system that I think I will find useful flying with my friends. It shoud only show on the map other pilots with maybe some info ( like last 20s vario ).

My Android APP uses V2 API with a delta-rle encoding for fast sending to the server. Livetrack24 is now working on V3 API (with oauth and websockets) that will be released in one or two weeks.
I agree that high level library will be necessary. Not only Curl but also some SSL library (OpenSSL ?) .
For the moment I’m simulating current hand made protocol with Curl :

// sudo apt-get install libcurl4-gnutls-dev
static int DoTransactionToServer(char *txbuf, unsigned int txbuflen, char *rxbuf, unsigned int maxrxbuflen)
{
	CURL *curl;
	CURLcode res;

	curl_global_init(CURL_GLOBAL_DEFAULT); 
............................



and I use a standalone hmac_sha256 implementation and picojson.h
Tony

www.VoloLiberoMonteCucco.it

Edited by - ToninoTarsi on 20/09/2016 11:26:36
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brunotl
Pterodattilo

France
1090 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  12:14:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Curl/OpenSSL look good for linux, but not for WinCE, not problem for me, we can leave tracking system as is for WinCE target... i think nobody use it.
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ToninoTarsi
Falchetto

Italy
113 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  21:24:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok Bruno,
We can continue to use the current HTTP implementation only for PC/CE.

so :

1) add CURL to the build environment. kobo-toolchain-install.sh I think should me modified.
2) Update tracking API to V2 .. or better V3
3) Implement LiveInfo API V2 or V3
4) Radar

I can do 2 and 3 but maybe for 1 is better you do ... I do not studied jet the make toolchain .

Tony

www.VoloLiberoMonteCucco.it
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brunotl
Pterodattilo

France
1090 Posts

Posted - 20/09/2016 :  23:04:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
no problem, i can update kobo-toolchain-install.sh for you ;-)
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  02:50:41  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
.. thermal database is almost nonsense. LK has thermal history for the day.
In flat lands, thermals are drifted by the wind and under moving cumulus they are not recurrent.
In mountain lands, where I fly, thermal spot are simply mountain tops. Nothing else.
That's why we have a mountain tops databases for the alps of over 3000 tops, and that's why such great efforts were spent to be able to use them automatically. Visual glide page 4 is just the best possible choice for people using a mountain tops database, and occasionally you can also add some other useful waypoints in there such a special ridge, a special spot etc.
I dont understand what is the purpose of transmitting thermal positions during the day, having said the above.
Either you transmit a mountain top position, or a flatland position which is not worth to be trusted after some minutes..
Where am I wrong?


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ToninoTarsi
Falchetto

Italy
113 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  07:42:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a matter of fact I made some confusion.
We are not talking of a thermal database.
Onky a Radar system with live position of frends.

www.VoloLiberoMonteCucco.it
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brunotl
Pterodattilo

France
1090 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  10:06:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Coolwind

.. thermal database is almost nonsense. LK has thermal history for the day.
In flat lands, thermals are drifted by the wind and under moving cumulus they are not recurrent.
In mountain lands, where I fly, thermal spot are simply mountain tops. Nothing else.
That's why we have a mountain tops databases for the alps of over 3000 tops, and that's why such great efforts were spent to be able to use them automatically. Visual glide page 4 is just the best possible choice for people using a mountain tops database, and occasionally you can also add some other useful waypoints in there such a special ridge, a special spot etc.
I dont understand what is the purpose of transmitting thermal positions during the day, having said the above.
Either you transmit a mountain top position, or a flatland position which is not worth to be trusted after some minutes..
Where am I wrong?



another point of view :
your thermal history is useless, but thermal history of gliders in front of you can be usefull...

Edited by - brunotl on 21/09/2016 10:06:22
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ToninoTarsi
Falchetto

Italy
113 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  10:24:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
your thermal history is useless, but thermal history of gliders in front of you can be usefull...


agree but I have more modest goal. Maybe only knowing that my friend, 2 km is front of me, is getting a +4 while I'm terminating in a +1 could be useful. For this info I only need a FLARM like system ( figure 15.25 of the version 3 manual )

In HG and PG we do not use FLARM and maybe,in this mode, FLARM source of info can be replaced by Livetrack24 InfoAPI.

Tony


www.VoloLiberoMonteCucco.it
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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  12:54:56  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No the thermal history is not useless. The thermal history of LK makes you gain minutes against other competitors when you do the round back on the task or you happen to be back to a mountain top for example. The culprit here is that each day has a different plafond but also a different wind drift. If you return to a mountain top with a glider you can easily point to the thermal position marked by LK (which is the point where you ENTERED the thermal, in fact!) and pull up entering circling mode right in the core! I have experienced this more than once. On the other side, other's thermals are often uncentered or weaker than possible, because the pilot you are sneaking is not a good pilot. In the air, nobody knows if the pilot ahead of you is a dog. For what is worth, having the thermals of the day being transmitted by many people around can be interesting, sure. But when we fly in cooperation with other pilots, there is a simple way of transmitting a good thermal: the team code (not good for HG, since it requires accessing the instrument).
Anyway, for what I see this is far to be usable in the air, simply because in the air there is rarely ground coverage with 3G. In the mountains, very very rarely.
However, it doesnt hurt to have it of course.


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brunotl
Pterodattilo

France
1090 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  14:14:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Coolwind

No the thermal history is not useless. The thermal history of LK makes you gain minutes against other competitors when you do the round back on the task or you happen to be back to a mountain top for example. The culprit here is that each day has a different plafond but also a different wind drift. If you return to a mountain top with a glider you can easily point to the thermal position marked by LK (which is the point where you ENTERED the thermal, in fact!) and pull up entering circling mode right in the core! I have experienced this more than once. On the other side, other's thermals are often uncentered or weaker than possible, because the pilot you are sneaking is not a good pilot. In the air, nobody knows if the pilot ahead of you is a dog. For what is worth, having the thermals of the day being transmitted by many people around can be interesting, sure. But when we fly in cooperation with other pilots, there is a simple way of transmitting a good thermal: the team code (not good for HG, since it requires accessing the instrument).
Anyway, for what I see this is far to be usable in the air, simply because in the air there is rarely ground coverage with 3G. In the mountains, very very rarely.
However, it doesnt hurt to have it of course.



- skill of pilot snif is not important, only Vz is important, uncentered thermal with good vz is good thermal for every one.

- the condition of the day change, it's same for your own thermal history and thermal reported by others pilot, so your own hstory are not better than thermal reported by other pilot

- if gsm data don't work in the air, why it's used for live tracking in the competion all around the world ?


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Coolwind
Moderator

Italy
8957 Posts

Posted - 21/09/2016 :  19:34:05  Show Profile  Visit Coolwind's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Many people wish it could be possible to use gsm for air tracking. But for competitions they use sat data, sometimes combined with gsm but not exclusively gsm. It depends on where you fly, since antennas normally are oriented down not up to maximize coverage horizontally.
Some people here can report about the attempt to use gsm data last year in a FAI grand prix.
Anyway while personally I think it is worth very little to exchange thermals during the flight, and it is only my opinion of course, I also think it could be great to exchange positions of other pilots so team flying would be much easier. At least it would be very fun!
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