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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 12/03/2013 : 02:24:33
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LK8000 developers team,
Every time that a new version is released I received the same feedback. Really good software and it's free! But most of the pilots think that LK8000 is too much COMPLEX for paragliders pilots!
- HARD to setup, too many options (most of them aren't needed on paragliding mode)
- Too many buttons (once again most of them aren't need on paragliding mode)
- Complex to do some simple actions, like a "Go To" using the map.
I don't know if you have something in mind to make it simpler, two years ago I tried to start giving some suggestions but nothing was done.
If you have some time, please check this video: http://vimeo.com/2829082 (after minute 11:20 it's showing the 2nd version of the software). How simple is the software... and it's what we really need.
I was thinking about a version with some options activated by default, like a ready-to-fly version where the pilots only needed to choose the maps files, waypoints, airspace files, devices and polars used by paragliders... LK8000 Starter version?!
Let me know your opinion. I think we need a software that people can use it without need to read a long manual.
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Edited by - parapenT1sta on 12/03/2013 02:40:47 |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 02:38:57
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My opinion is that I agree, and it is quite easy to reduce things. What is not easy is to decide what to remove.
Whatever choice you take, someone will tell you that you removed the only thing he was using.
So in the end you will discover that removing things is much harder than adding them, and this is why I am not keen on spending time on a lost battle :-) |
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 04:04:28
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That's why I was calling it a Starter Edition, I (we) could choose the best options and hide them and restructure buttons and menu. I was thinking about something like this (it's incomplete):
I don't mind to send you a list of default options for paragliders that you could hide.
I just need to know if some developer it's thinking to develop this version. |
Edited by - parapenT1sta on 12/03/2013 04:27:30 |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 11:04:25
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| You want a developer to develop your own version..and to maintain it. |
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brunotl
Pterodattilo
France
1096 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 11:26:17
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I think a "Getting started for Paraglider" doc and "Default Config file for paragliders" is a better solution that simplified (degraded) versions.
LK is not really complex and i think people want fly with new Generation instruments like LK, C-Pilote or others don't want simple tools, he want powerfull tools...
my experience with lot of pilot confirme that...
for solve that, in my club, I've provided preconfigured version and all are happy...
"car is little more complicated to use than bike but if you want learn how to use you can go far away" ;)
@Tiguy82: don't worry it's only my things ;-)
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 14:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Coolwind
You want a developer to develop your own version..and to maintain it.
Paolo, my version for sure won't be the Starter Edition :) I think I know LK8000 enough to use the "complex" version!
Bruno, I created a profile with the best settings for paragliders but with lack of time to documented it. the profile wasn't released with the final version. Many users think that we have many buttons that we will never use them, and I agree with them. |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 14:59:47
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Documenting and explaining how things are working is not optional, unfortunately.
But given the number of people using LK, I would not say it is that hard to use it.
Personally most the friends I know, using LK, are not techies, nor experts on technologies, but can use LK with no problems.
Normally the request to simplify, or the argumentation "it is too complex" come from people that actually never used the software, and probably never will, because they dont want to spend 1 hour of their precious time to read a manual, or to test, expecting that all functionalities are automagically self explained and in the front page of the software, for them.
The only barrier to use LK is the user interface, thar requires to understand how touching the screen will change pages.
Then, all the rest is optional, and LK is preconfigured for takeoff.
Normally, the same kind of people that do not want to spend 1 hour to learn a software they are supposed to use in flight, are the same people that says "if you dont add this function I will not use it".
I am not going to spend time for this people.
The software is free of charge, tell the people to download the manual and to read it. It is free of charge as well.
My time for this people will never be available.
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by CoolwindI am not going to spend time for this people.
The software is free of charge, tell the people to download the manual and to read it. It is free of charge as well.
My time for this people will never be available.
I was just giving you the feedback that I received.
I understand your point of view.
You can close this thread. |
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brunotl
Pterodattilo
France
1096 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TiGuy82
Bruno, I created a profile with the best settings for paragliders but with lack of time to documented it. the profile wasn't released with the final version. Many users think that we have many buttons that we will never use them, and I agree with them.
this config is Best Idea for beginer ! i hope you find time for document it !
when paragliders dicovers LK he think it's complex only for one reason
- default setting is made for gliders !
if you solve this small problem you solve all others !
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 17:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by brunotlthis config is Best Idea for beginer ! i hope you find time for document it !
when paragliders dicovers LK he think it's complex only for one reason
- default setting is made for gliders !
if you solve this small problem you solve all others !
I sent you my configuration. Please test it, modify what you think that should be modified. After, I will documented it! |
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eric.carden
Aquilotto
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 14/03/2013 : 19:25:35
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Thanks for starting/resuming this discussion, Sergio. I think there are some valid ideas to consider. I'm a nerdy engineer, so LK was love at first sight for me. :-) Not all pilots are tech geeks, though, and I've run into some of this "too complicated" feedback before, too. For some it's just an excuse to not try to learn/grow/improve as pilots, but for others, they truly see LK configuration/familiarization as too daunting a challenge. I agree that one good idea to help would be to include a "PG/HG Default" system configuration file with the setup. (Note that I included hang gliders here, since that's mostly what I fly.) :-) As for there being too many buttons, I've never felt that way and have no experience with potential users who said that (though I imagine that some people might see it this way). And as for there being too many configuration options, I'd be VERY reluctant to remove any - unless they've just become obsolete or overcome by newer functionality/features. There are plenty of configuration options I'll never adjust or use, but it doesn't bother me even a tiny bit that they're there. :-) I think that an included "default" PG/HG configuration would solve the majority of the issue. Of course, with each new release, someone would need to review this configuration file and update it as needed to reflect program changes that might need to be reflected in the configuration file. March on!
Interesting timing... I'm about to submit an LK article for publication in the USHPA (U.S. Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association) monthly magazine, and I feel compelled to include one sentence in it that I wish weren't needed:
"And I'll gladly share my notes on my preferred LK configuration, which may help you fine-tune the configuration even better than it is 'out of the box' (which is geared more for sailplane pilots in some ways)."
Maybe I'll edit that sentence now to report that discussions are underway to possibly include a default configuration that's more suitable for HG/PG...?
Thanks,
Eric |
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parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14/03/2013 : 19:52:48
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I already sent the system profile to Bruno to be reviewed. I will also make a aircraft profile using EN-C polar.
I was thinking to write an article about how to install LK8000 for the USHPA magazine ;) I am also a member since I moved to Canada. |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 14/03/2013 : 22:00:18
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There are two issues with custom configurations.
One is the system profile, which is easy to accomplish.
The second is the menu button configuration, aka DEFAULT_MENU.txt in _System.
This one is tricky, it is possible to use a custom default for PGs also, but in principle care must be taken because when we change a version (4.1x 3.1x etc. all betas) we also change the XCI.
Generally after a stable release we can distribute also custom DEFAULT_MENUS, because for at least one year they are ok.
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fj27
Pulcino
33 Posts |
Posted - 15/03/2013 : 17:48:35
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As an exemple, I use LK for G.A., so I don't need all tools for gliding.
I developded my own interface, to have it ASAP, and with only 3 sreens.
Menu screen : with direct buttons needed on flight like to waypoints, tasks, Pan, etc...
Config screen : to fix setup
Pan screen : to move the map where it needed.
That it and it work fine including multimaps, for my usage.
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nunogirao
New Entry
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 02:02:14
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I believe I was the last guy that complains about this software to Sérgio :)
Anyway, I don't think that you should eliminate features. But in the middle of so many options, configurations and files, it should be possible to setup a Basic configuration that can evolve as the pilot gets familiar with LK.
I hate to complain about something that is made free for everyone and with the best of the intentions possible. However, I would like to make it better, too. I started using it a few weeks ago (unfortunately the weather is terrible lately). I'm a person who gets the manual and read it before buying stuff, but with this one it was impossible to get through it without the device. And even after I bought a MioMap and install LK, I felt completely lost. I wanted to use it and I was struggling with simple things that I couldn't find easily in the manual. The manual is very complete and technical, but it's not structured to give you a easy start.
For instance, only in page 125 is the explanation for the green and red bar on the left. The only information I could find about the thermal height profile is in a small paragraph in page 100, and it doesn't explain what is the small horizontal arrow.
The program itself has some strange things too. For me, the task setup is mind boggling. You have to go to the settings menu to declare the type of start. Why it's not in the task setup menu? Everything related with configuration of the task should be in the same place. And I'm not going to tell you what I suffer until Sérgio explained to me how we PAN through the maps.
Again, I'm just a newbie to this software and probably I'm not seeing the whole picture. But I'm a tech person (damn, I'm using linux...) and I felt like a dumb ass trying to cope with this program/manual.
It really need a BASIC manual with a BASIC setup, that explain the BASIC things we want to do with a flying software. Explaining the screen elements, loading waypoints, setting a task, screens that appear through the task (thermalling and cruising) and finally, downloading the great flight we just made so we can show to our friends what terrible flyers they are :)
I know that Sérgio is aware of these things. I don't know enough of LK to give any great help of how to make it simpler. For now, I just complaint! But even so, I can recognize a great product when I see it. And I believe that this is a great product. Just remember that we, the humans, not always are at such a high level and we give it up :(.
Still struggling with LK, with the paraglider, with the air and with some trees.
Regards.
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 02:50:07
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Maybe someone could write an easy manual in english, for new users?
Because as you say, once you find the explanation, than it is easy to use.
I wrote myself the v4 manual, and honestly we shall not dedicate time to write anything else for the next months.
We do need volunteers that can cooperate to create new docs. Just think that the 70 pages I wrote are only about new features of v4.
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Topic |
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LK8000 simpler for paragliders? LK8000 Starter Ed.