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SlimTom
Pulcino
30 Posts |
 Posted - 14/04/2012 : 23:27:52
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I have checked/searched forum for this info, but could not find it - so I am sorry if this topic was answered before. I am paragliding pilot and sometimes task is done in a way that we have two (or more) points in the flat - away from ridge - and I would like to know if I have enough height to do them both and then return to the ridge.
Or to put it more simple - is there a way to know the 2nd next turn-point arrival altitude or L/D required to reach it and safely return?
I know I have all this info for the first next turnpont, but sometimes info about the second next would be very valuable.
Second question:
Do you plan to make bottom bar customizable? I mean - so the pilot can decide what to put there?
Thanks,
Tomaz, Slovenia
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2012 : 23:49:56
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Bottom bar can already be custom, for last 3 stripes.
The other stripes cannot be changed, right now. I am not sure it is ok to let people change all basics, but in any case not now in 3.2.
Concerning the other question, there is no such feature I am afraid. |
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SlimTom
Pulcino
30 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2012 : 23:57:27
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thanks for quick reply.
1: great for the customizable bottom bar. Was not aware this is possible in current version. Will take a look immeditly :)
2: For the second next turnpoint info: does anyone else miss this function? I hope so - so that would make sense to add this :)
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eric.carden
Falchetto
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 17/04/2012 : 17:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by SlimTom
For the second next turnpoint info: does anyone else miss this function? I hope so - so that would make sense to add this :)
Yes, This thought has occurred to me, too, especially after seeing that the Condor (simulator) PDA has this feature. With it, you can step through all upcoming task points and see your arrival altitude for each one. I haven't bothered to request this yet on the forum, but I, too, would like this feature.
Eric |
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SlimTom
Pulcino
30 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2012 : 23:41:49
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Just returned from paragliding match. While in the air - boy, how could I use this feature, since there was few points, where I could use it. I mean - taking up height to take two turning points one after another without going to the ridge in beetween.
I was thinking - maybe to have a table - screen, with all waypoint in the route, with name, height, and req L/D beetween them or req. eff. to reach them in route order - from your/my current position.
or: The calculation is actually similar as final glide over one or more turning points. |
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eric.carden
Falchetto
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2012 : 22:47:42
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The calculation part shouldn't be that hard. LK already calculates the altitude required for each task leg while calculating task/goal arrival altitude. These altitudes just need to be stored in memory somewhere (rather than being discarded after adding them to make "task arrival altitude") and - probably the most difficult part - displayed somehow/somewhere. A table/screen (an info page, perhaps?) might be a good way to go. The Condor PDA has a "page" that shows the arrival altitude for one task point at a time (from the next/current one to goal), and you can scroll forward and backward to select the task point of interest. For the TP after next, "+1" is shown on the page, for the one after that, "+2", and so on. Once you're looking at goal, this "+X" number is red. But a single info page with all remaining task points listed and the arrival altitudes for all of them shown at once (if they'll all fit on screen at once!) would be fine, too, in my opinion.
I don't use this feature of Condor's terribly often, but occasionally I like it. I fly hang gliders myself (and rarely competitively), but I know that in many contests, there are multiple closely-spaced turnpoints - so as to minimize the post-flight retrieve hassle for those that don't make goal. Not counting the start point, what's the highest number of task points you'd expect to ever see in one task? |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2012 : 23:10:55
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I wonder how we can reasonably estimate arrival altitudes beyond next turnpoint.
We must assume there is the same wind, for example. Which is not granted at all after an hour, even for the same place, not to mention for a place we have never even visited.
And then we must estimate a speed (MC), and relative climb rates, again for places we never visited in the day.
I wouldnt bet 1 cent on such estimations..
Yes, we do them, like every other software do them. We can even change approach, like we discussed some time. For example, we can use an average speed reached so far, and use it for arrival altitude and ETE. Or we can get average climb rate, and use it for the rest of task. Or we can use a mixed approach. But the result is always the same: we are making guesses over guesses.
Now, for paragliders wind is much more important than for gliders, because 20km wind for PGs is 50% of their VNE, almost!! It is like a 140kmh wind for a glider.
So the whole point is that these values are worthless.
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Edited by - Coolwind on 02/05/2012 01:06:18 |
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SlimTom
Pulcino
30 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 09:55:39
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I completely agree. Estimate for arrival at goal is completely uselless (for paragliders at least). I don't even have so much time/freedom to check all this numbers during the flight.
But to see arrival (L/D, ETE,..) at one after next waypoint makes sense. That's why I ask only for this. |
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eric.carden
Falchetto
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 19:49:33
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I think it's fair to expect a pilot to understand that these numbers are only estimates and are based on one very significant thing that can't be known for sure: how the movement of the air (wind & lift/sink) will change with time and geography. Nonetheless, I prefer to have this estimate than to NOT have it. Things ahead could get worse... or they could get better... who knows? I'll fly a plan that can safely handle worsening conditions, but I still like to have a baseline estimate with which to work.
In a nutshell, while I won't bet my life on any of these values, I wouldn't call them worthless, either. Especially in cases like Tomaz points out, these values can be very helpful. LK already provides task arrival altitude (and required glide ratio). If these values are more worthless the farther away (time and distance) a point is, then the already-provided TskArr is the most worthless of all. :-) So if TskArr is worthwhile enough to show, then certainly so are the points between here and goal.
Eric |
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bo.
Pterodattilo
721 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 11:43:22
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I think a useful interface for this can be made straight out of the infopages (2.x), where the task TPs could be listed in correct order, with distance, Req.E and estimated arrival altitude calculated for each TP. The next TP should be listed on top, and the TPs that has been taken should be removed from the list. Ther should not be an option to "sort" this list.. :-)
All values should be calculated using the current wind and MC setting. Wind and MC values shuld be visible when viewing this task infopage, so you at least know the assumptions made for the calculations at a glance.
What do you guys think? It should be fairly easy to implement, unless Im missing something here.
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 12:21:41
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Apart from using 2.x pages, which is wrong since there is nothing to select in this task list, I agree.
Probably much easier to create a dedicated page of information, which can be called with a button (and we can assign this button to custom menu, since we shall not be adding new buttons in the program, we have too many already). Or custom key of course. |
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eric.carden
Falchetto
USA
198 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2012 : 20:23:29
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Tomaz,
While it isn't exactly what you're requesting, you might be interested in some "unsanctioned" work I've done - showing a "glide terrain line" around the current/next waypoint (i.e., the one you're headed to now): http://www.postfrontal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6444.
Eric |
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SlimTom
Pulcino
30 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2012 : 09:28:41
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| Great! I'll test it and hope it will prove useful in live action. I am a bit worried about readability of the terrain while paragliding... Usually I have terrain OFF because when magnified I cannot really see the ridge etc... |
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Topic |
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Height or L/D req or arr at 2nd next turn point