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JBlyth
Pulcino
Australia
85 Posts |
 Posted - 29/02/2012 : 00:40:46
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May I very gently ask when the Android version of LK8000 will/might be available?
I know the team has been working long hours getting version 3.0 out and documented, but I am hoping an Android version might not be too far away...... |
Edited by - JBlyth on 29/02/2012 00:43:37 |
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JBlyth
Pulcino
Australia
85 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 06:44:37
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Hmmmmmm - it seems that the LK8000 developers do not wish to give any response to my query about a release of an Android version of the software.
They have previously suggested that they were planning on just such a release, so I don't understand why they are being shy. Then again, they were a little terse when I raised the subject many months ago.
I need to buy a new cell phone shortly, and was planning to buy a new mobile phone with a sun-light readable screen as a standby device for gliding, but I may look at something else if LK8000 is not going to have an Android version available in the relatively short term.
Many thanks
John in Sunny Carnarvon - Western Australia |
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AlphaLima
Moderator
Germany
826 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 10:10:39
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That is my personal view:
You won't find a cell phone with a good sunlight read display. At the moment there are two devices with probably good visibility in sunlight coming up (V1 and CS61). So we are waiting for the practical flight test with it, but it looks good so far. There was only one android device claimed to have sunlight readability (Sell Streak5). But this is already discontinued. So why should we spend month of our (of our free) time porting to android without a clear benefit. In Europe the flying season is starting, so I want to fly in my free time, so the development will not be fast anyway. I think we will wait until end of season for the decision of porting. The best fact that would encourage me for a port would be a perfect sunlight readably Android device.
So if someone has the Holy Grail? Prove it!
I still don’t believe that a cell phone is the best hardware for a glide computer for several reasons. And so I use a dedicated hardware, I’m not spending hundreds of hours of my free time for something which does not give me a benefit but people who get already a free software from us, also want to save money because they can use their “700$ ANDROID XXXSL Smart tablet cell 3D game super device with last modified ROM of a friend” and 100Apps’s constraining each other, instead of a dedicated hardware (<300$). What should LK do if you, receive o phone call, receive a message, get and reminder? Turn the screen (a very good idea in flight)? Not talking about EMI problems with Radio, Flarm, bluetooh. Sure you can turn it off, but I’m also sure that a lot of people will ignore this and complain in the forum in case of problems.
I’m not arguing against Android in general but against cell phones as a glide computer.
We already had a discussion about the turn indicator in competitions which is abandoned, what do you think will happen to a cell phone with an internet connection? And I’m also tired of all post of people who have expert friends who say it is so easy to do. Obviously we’re old men and don’t know how to make modern software. But this is an open source project so everybody is invited to help us or do the porting.
That’s my absolute personal view not knowing how the other developers think about it, and this is not an official LK8000 statement.
;-)
best regards
Ulli - northern hemisphere |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:04:45
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100% same opinion of Ulli.
Plus, I am not going to buy an android device. I dont need it, and I will not do it in the next months.
Yesterday Naviter (SeeYou) has announced that they are "upgrading" their Oudies (windows CE) with the new screens which are the same of V1 (v1 has a bigger resolution, in addition, at the same price).
So when someone is asking me to go android so they can save money and use their cellphone (unreadable in flight, let it be) I get angry.
And what about those who bought the Dell Streak 2 months ago?
That device, bought second hand for 300 dollars like I read on the usenet, since yesterday is worth nothing! Why one would buy a third-hand Streak now that there are new devices, better than that, for less money?
I hear you say "modern hardware". And what about software? Do you think our software, once compiled ALSO (like xcsoar) on Android would be better?
No difference.
Another question to you, end-user. Do you know what a "thread" is? Do you know what a "GDI leak" is? Or a "monotonic clock"? No? Then why do you think an operating system is better than another running on the same hardware for example?
You say "modern operating system"? Oh mygod. And you wouldnt expect that LK8000 is running on it ... like on ancient CE devices, do you?
However, however, as Ulli wrote, we shall get there sooner or later.
In fact, we are getting there month after month without stopping development on CE.
Compared to september, the code relies no more on Windows Ce for DLL, for Registry, and it is much much more cleaned and reorganized.
We spend 2 more months (15dec shifter to 15 february) to add logbook, sideview, sonar and other stuff in 3.0. Not sleeping.
Version 3.1 does rotate automatically the screen, to accomplish resolution changes that are possible on android devices.
And now we want to fly in the good season. At the end of the season, probably the software will be even more clean, and we might start doing the porting which hopefully wont last much. I say "might" because it depends on the fact we shall receive Android devices to work on: be assured we shall not buy one.
Since pilots expect to save money, we also now expect the same.
Happy flights
paolo - northern emisphere too
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TiGuy82
Pterodattilo
Canada
1445 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:01:49
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I got a Dell Streak 5 about couple months ago and really cost me $300 and I didn't tested yet on direct sunlight because during my work I need a GPS and I could use my smartphone as a GPS but I prefer my HP310 to do this job. I know people that use cellphone as their livetrack logger and that's one of the reasons I would install LK8000 on my smartphone.
I think I would never put my smartphone on my cockpit because I don't want to have the risk of losing it! I have it just in case LK8000 team releases a android version, I would like to test it :)
Maybe in the future PNA will run android instead of WinCE, never knows! Google wants to take over everything :) |
www.facebook.com/LK8000 |
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davesalmon
Pterodattilo
United Kingdom
901 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:30:08
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Well said guys. LK8000 is where it is today, because development has been kept along certain lines.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong idea, but is it thought that cellphones will work in the air, say for live tracking? My understanding is that the signals are basically horizontal, and so cellphones do not work above a relatively low altitude. I once tried high in wave, as we could not make radio contact. Kept trying as we descended. No signal at all right down to about 2000 ft, slightly better at 1500 ft, just about useable. |
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TiGuy82
Pterodattilo
Canada
1445 Posts |
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JBlyth
Pulcino
Australia
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 05:27:58
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Thanks for the responses everyone......
- The Samsung Galaxy SII and similar Galaxy Note cell phones with the Super AOLED screens are excellent in sunlight, and vastly superior than anything else I have seen anywhere apart from the very expensive commercial systems
- Coolwind, your assumption that I am interested in an Android version "to save money" is not really valid in my case, as I intend to probably purchase a V1 to replace my HP Ipaq 210 in the next few months
- I would use my sunlight readable cell phone as a safety back up unit to my "primary" LK8000 system. I believe this is a very valid reason to express interest in an Android version. When I am 300km away from my take off point with only the barren Australian landscape around in most directions, it is comforting to have a good backup, and I am carrying the phone regardless. I am NOT suggesting that Android is better or worse than Win CE.
- While I don't profess to be in the same programming league as the developers of LK, I have some professional background in software development, so I do understand your reference to "threads" and "GDI leaks" etc.
- I have just enjoyed 55 hours and 5300km of gliding on the east side of Australia at Corowa (yes, I know I need to fly faster ;-), so I certainly don't wish anyone to curtail their gliding pursuits in the coming northern hemisphere season on my account - so enjoy yourselves!
10 knot thermals with 13,000 foot climbs to everyone....
John in Sunny Carnarvon, Western Australia |
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JBlyth
Pulcino
Australia
85 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 05:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by davesalmon
My understanding is that the signals are basically horizontal, and so cellphones do not work above a relatively low altitude. I once tried high in wave, as we could not make radio contact. Kept trying as we descended. No signal at all right down to about 2000 ft, slightly better at 1500 ft, just about useable.
Obviously different cell phone technologies are used in different countries, but my experience in Australia with 3G systems is that both the cell phone and data links work to at least 13,0000 feet (handy to quickly check the development of thunderstorms on the distant horizon with Weather Radar sites). When in powered aircraft at 10,000 feet, I have made calls over a distance of more than 100km to the nearest cell tower.... |
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Marco from Hangar 5
Aquila imperiale
Netherlands
445 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 15:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by AlphaLima
That is my personal view:
You won't find a cell phone with a good sunlight read display. At the moment there are two devices with probably good visibility in sunlight coming up (V1 and CS61).
that is not true, my htc-hd2 is more then adequate, equal or even better then the HP314, which was considered the best about a year ago. Last week HTC announced the HTC One X with a 5 inch 1280*720 Super LCD 2 display, which promisses to be very good in sunlight. Also the new ones with Super Amoled displays are much better then it used to be.
quote:
So we are waiting for the practical flight test with it, but it looks good so far. There was only one android device claimed to have sunlight readability (Sell Streak5). But this is already discontinued.
You shoould ask yourself why they discontimued this so quickly after introducing it.. Appearently there is no market for stand alone PNA's running on android, because of the very good Android Smartphones that are available, and come with a mobile phone subscription "for free" and most of the time have a car nav allready installed ready to be used. Also the integration of car nav's into the dashboard has led to the decreased market for dedicated PNA'boxes, and that is operating system wide, so also the tomtom's garmins and ce devices, all have seen a big decrease in sales of their PNA's
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So why should we spend month of our (of our free) time porting to android without a clear benefit.
Simple, within in two three years there wont be any PNA for sale anymore, except for niche markets maybe, like special hike/bike units and of course the Naviter Oudie and LX Minimap. Niche means per definition, hard to get and very expensive.. So then why not having a suitable smartphone by then? its just a logical step in the development of LK8000, and because Windows mobile development has stopped already more then a year ago, Iphone is not open source and Windows phone also not open source anymore, Android is the only one left and has the future for open source mobile apps. Please understand me very well, I do not say that Android is better or something.. I have not the knowledge to make such a comment.. this is just a matter of economics.. remember the video tape war, philips video2000 tapes were much better, but none the less in the end VHS won the battle to become the standard... This battle between mobile operating systems is similar to that.. quote:
In Europe the flying season is starting, so I want to fly in my free time, so the development will not be fast anyway. I think we will wait until end of season for the decision of porting.
That is not what you guys promissed us at the end of 2011 season.. I told some young pilots that are starting with XC flying that an android version was in the pipeline, so they are waiting for the android version so they can try it out on their smartphones.. Some of them have started to use XCSoar.. and that is only in my circle of friends, so imagine how that is in the rest of europe... I have the impression you guys have difficulties to see it from other ones perspective, place yourself in the shoes of a student, who does have a smartphone, making his forst XC flights looking for a nav aid to be used on his smartphone, because he has that thing anyways.. its not a stupid thought, and why getting angry about such a thought, its just logical for these guys to think that way..quote:
The best fact that would encourage me for a port would be a perfect sunlight readably Android device. So if someone has the Holy Grail? Prove it!
As said, my HTC HD2 (on the market since 2009) has served me well last gliding season, yes, the screen is still not completely sunlight readable but more then adequate. At least much, very much better then my old HX4700, which was considered the best PDA for gliding for years.
But there are better Smartphones coming out allmost every day with better and bigger screens. HTC One X promisses to have a very good sun readable display.. but I wont buy it (yet) because it cant run LK8000 yet! Maybe in one or two years on the second hand market...quote:
I still don’t believe that a cell phone is the best hardware for a glide computer for several reasons. And so I use a dedicated hardware, I’m not spending hundreds of hours of my free time for something which does not give me a benefit but people who get already a free software from us, also want to save money because they can use their “700$ ANDROID XXXSL
That is a BS reasoning.. 90% of the people never buy such phones on the retail market, they get it together "for free" with there mobile phone/data subscription.. On the second hand market I got my HD2 for 225 euro's, just about the same as a quality dedicated PNA.. it was EXACTLY the reason I bought this Smartphone.. why pay the same for a device that I only can use for navigation, for the same money I got internet, mobile phone and SMS (it didnt cost me a dime to upgrade my mobile phone sim only to a sim only including mobile internet).
quote:
Smart tablet cell 3D game super device with last modified ROM of a friend” and 100Apps’s constraining each other, instead of a dedicated hardware (<300$). What should LK do if you, receive o phone call, receive a message, get and reminder? Turn the screen (a very good idea in flight)? Not talking about EMI problems with Radio, Flarm, bluetooh. Sure you can turn it off, but I’m also sure that a lot of people will ignore this and complain in the forum in case of problems.
More BS reasoning.. as allways, run LK8000 as a single app with only the necessary support beside it like Bt or serial port.. turn the phone off, turn internet off.. Its said so many times here, because it also counts for the older PDA's. BTW I use Bt to connect with flarm, works very well, another reason to have a smartphone in stead of a dedicated PNA, dedidacted PNA's do not have Bt SPP on board quote:
I’m not arguing against Android in general but against cell phones as a glide computer.
If used with common sense it works fine.quote:
We already had a discussion about the turn indicator in competitions which is abandoned, what do you think will happen to a cell phone with an internet connection?
That wont happen, at 90% of the world's surface, mobile phones do not work above 500-1000 meters, let alone mobile internet, so phone and internet is useless during flight, better to turn that off anyways
quote:
And I’m also tired of all post of people who have expert friends who say it is so easy to do.
Obviously we’re old men and don’t know how to make modern software. But this is an open source project so everybody is invited to help us or do the porting.
That’s my absolute personal view not knowing how the other developers think about it, and this is not an official LK8000 statement.
;-)
best regards
Ulli - northern hemisphere
[/quote] |
Marco
BU (PH-588)
Mini Nimbus HS7, s/n 039
http://www.zweef.nl/
Zweefvliegclub Den Helder, NETHERLANDS |
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soarAK
Pulcino
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 16:13:01
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Marco,
You must have a bad day. You are being quite argumentative. I discussed this Android issue at the end of January. I was also pushing for Android as a client would push for a new product.
Through some post exchanges I realized we are not clients, we are users of the open source software.
These guys do what they like in the order they like it and we just need to adjust. If you want to make a case do it politely. Don't be pushy it pisses people off. I know I did that in the past without realizing it.
At the end Paolo said he is moving into Android direction, but I hope you are not really expecting him to work on Android porting instead of flying during the season.
I can't figure out when he sleeps since he often posts here at 2 AM (of his time). Paolo, do you also have a job?
Anyway, this is simple wait for it or move on to XCSoar. We all have that choice. I would like to have a couple of changes myself not related to porting, but I can't have everything.
I know your soaring season is over and this probably explains you being argumentative. Take a glass of wine, relax.
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 16:31:24
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But the android version IS in the pipeline. It's the way we are going to get it that is under discussion.
Two ways:
1) Stop development, freeze the code, and port to android. XCSoar did that in July 2009.
The first android version (usable) is dated 2011, but includes also other changes and improvements of course.
2) We keep developing and at the same time cleaning the code and consider always the porting issue, with the target of not having to freeze the code for a long time.
This is what we are doing, I have been doing, since september 2011.
And the 3.2 will be another step forward.
The 2) was decided by ALL developers, not by me.
I would have preferred not to keep a CE compatibility or windows compatibility, and go for a full android version instead (mainly user interface issues), but other developers prefer to keep both things.
So we discuss but also advance at the same time.
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nosbig
Pulcino
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 00:30:13
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I think we need to trust that Paolo and the rest of the developers are making the best decisions for the future of LK8000. Plus, they have worked intensively month after month and ask for nothing in return.
My trust in the developers to choose the best route forward is far greater than the trust I have for the politicians leading our countries (and we pay these politicians big $$$). Sorry for the side-step topic but it is an election year over here in the states.
Fly Fun, Fly Safely ..::JG |
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Marco from Hangar 5
Aquila imperiale
Netherlands
445 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 11:05:44
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I trust Paolo 100% and I am very grateful for the tremendous work he and his development team does.. But with my argument I wanted to show that there are other ways to look at things, and should also be taken into consideration.
What I understand now is that an Android version will certainly come, but because it is decided not to stop the development on LK8000 itself, the Android version will come later. For me personally I do not have a problem with that.. next year maybe an upgrade to HTC One X.. if it really is as good as they tell on various fora. :D |
Marco
BU (PH-588)
Mini Nimbus HS7, s/n 039
http://www.zweef.nl/
Zweefvliegclub Den Helder, NETHERLANDS |
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Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
7476 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2012 : 11:18:17
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| The entire 3.1a screen resolution change detection and adaption has been done not for windows CE but for android. We also use it for CE but only using a button "rotate" portrait to landscape. |
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hanscato
New Entry
Norway
2 Posts |
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Android Version of LK8000???
Topic Locked