| Author |
 Topic  |
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 27/11/2009 : 10:47:18
|
- Start gate type: Exit and Entry
- Start gate time: Open and Close
- Time To Start
quote:
Most of Davis Straub's flying is in competitions and he responded to Paolo's request for general delta task information with this:
1) Task specification: Start cylinder (exit and entry), size (kilometers), turn point cylinder radius (400 meters, most likely),
goal: cylinder or line (length and perpendicular to the course line).
2) Multiple start times, take the last one. Number of start times and interval length, and first start time.
|
Edited by - Coolwind on 12/05/2010 17:32:08 |
|
|
dfgeorge
New Entry
3 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 04:24:12
|
| having an auto restart option would be nice too (for HG at least) as we are generally allowed to fly back and take another start if we want. |
 |
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 12:07:08
|
Hi,
auto restart is already default in LK :-) |
|
|
|
Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 12:18:45
|
I don't have enough informations to make the start gate.
There is a period -start-end- during which any pilot can start?
Or there are more periods?
Please consider I know NOTHING about competition with paragliders. |
|
|
|
dfgeorge
New Entry
3 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 13:09:49
|
I tried restarting in the pc sim version, it didnt do what I was expecting.
Fly around inside start cylinder, all indicatios are pre start, distance is shown to start point, next waypoint is still the start.
Fly out of the start cylinder, task starts, display moves on to next waypoint.
Fly back into start cylinder display still looks like im on task, all indicatios are for flying to first waypoint, not for the start. There was no obvious indication I was back in the start circle.
|
|
|
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 13:17:00
|
| Paolo, I will try to put all the information here. I'm just trying to get them all! |
Edited by - parapenT1sta on 28/11/2009 13:29:28 |
|
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 13:29:18
|
| dfgeorge: there is no indication that you are back inside, but when you exit the start cylinder for the second time, a new start is detected. |
|
|
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 13:31:00
|
| I think the best way to understand the competitions task is to give some examples. |
|
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 13:31:39
|
Hi all,
here is how i tried to describe the concept of start gates, start in/out etc for paragliders and deltas. its from an email i sent to Paolo and Sergio a while ago
PG/HG pilots, please check if this is an accurate description!
Hi friends!
Here is a link to the manual for the Brauniger Compeo flight
instrument. This is one of the most used instruments in paragliding,
so if we can make XCSoar behave in a similar way a lot more
paragliding pilots may consider using this software.
http://www.brauniger.com/download/Compeo_User_Manual_V224_Engl-corr.pdf
The relevant info is in section 2.9 The Competition Route
There you will also find a description of the "Start in" / "start out" rules
Generally we need to set the following:
Start in/out
Start time
Number of start gates
Time between start gates
Additionally we need to be able to set individual radius for each
waypoint, like in AAT tasks. All waypoints are cylinders, some finish
lines may be straight lines.
Further we always want to navigate the shortest possible route. It
would be nice to have the shortest route calculated automatically
without having to use the "optimize" function in XCSoar. We do not
need the "minimum time" of AAT tasks.
There is also a "finish task by" or "land by" -time. This means that
you only get distance and speed points for the distance that is made
between start time and "finish task by" time. Or in other words,
scoring stops at the "finish task by" -time, if you have not yet
reached goal.
If I got it right, the meaning of "number of start gates" and the time
interval between them is like this:
Example:
Start type: Exit
Start time 14:00
Start gates: 3
Start gate interval: 15 min
The first possible task start time is at 14:00. It is then possible to
exit the start cylinder and proceed to the next turnpoint. If you
start between 14:00 and 14:59, the clock starts ticking at 14:00.
If the conditions are weak and you want to wait, you can choose to
start later. The clock is reset at 14:15 (start gate 2) if you did not
use the first start gate. Then the clock is reset at 14:30 (start gate
3), if you did not use start gate 2.
I am unsure if there is a "latest start time" involved. Could you
enlighten us on this, Sergio? And please check if i have made an
accurate description above. I have not tried competing with multiple
start gates, only "Race to goal" tasks (one start gate/task start
time).
More litterature on FAI paragliding/hang glidng comps here:
http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/system/files/sc07b_2009.pdf
See for instance section 2.25 Start of task (i could not copy the text
in this pdf..)
|
Edited by - bo. on 28/11/2009 13:41:01 |
|
|
|
Coolwind
Moderator
Italy
8957 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 14:05:38
|
>The first possible task start time is at 14:00. It is then possible to
exit the start cylinder and proceed to the next turnpoint. If you
start between 14:00 and 14:59, the clock starts ticking at 14:00.
I dont think this is correct.
I shall wait until we have some more feedback from some more competition pilots from different countries.
I wouldn't like to write 3 times this part of the software.
All of this in fact is to make a timer on screen.
Not clear if once you start, you can come back in and restart. Which time is going to be used then etc.
I am understanding that there are no official or consolidated rules for these starts, and most likely they will change as they want to change it everytime, assuming that pilots will use their watch to monitor time.
Sorry guys we need some more external feedback to proceed on this matter.
Concerning waypoints, I have read around the same.
Pilots are actually given the turnpoints to enter manually inside their instruments.
This is exactly what happens also for gliding competition.
Everybody is using, in paragliding, different instruments: garmin, magellan, compeo/brauniger, digifly, flytec, etc.etc.
Now, how is a garmin supposed to load compeo wp?
If organization is providing turnpoints in several formats, then they will be able to provide them also for Winpilot, or SeeYou mobile. Right?
I also need way more feedback on this.
|
|
|
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 15:05:04
|
The information that is on Compeo Manual is really good about competition route! But you also can read the Compeo+ (the top GPS-Vario): http://www.brauniger.com/download/COMPEO-plus_manual_fin-06-11-08.pdf (3.4)
quote:
This is exactly what happens also for gliding competition.
Everybody is using, in paragliding, different instruments: garmin, magellan, compeo/brauniger, digifly, flytec, etc.etc.
Now, how is a garmin supposed to load compeo wp?
If organization is providing turnpoints in several formats, then they will be able to provide them also for Winpilot, or SeeYou mobile. Right?
I also need way more feedback on this.
About paragliding competitions the most used waypoints are CompeGPS, OziExplorer & Garmin. That's why I ask you to support them by default in LK8000. They usually use CompeGPS or GPS Dump to upload the waypoints. Please check this FAI website: http://fs.fai.org/wiki/FileFormats
If you are using LK8000, you can give them the SD Card and they upload the file type you request.
OziExplorer WPT: http://www.rota45.com/
http://www.rota45.com/ficheiros/NORDESTE2009.wpt
CompeGPS and Garmin: http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=163835#163835
|
Edited by - parapenT1sta on 28/11/2009 15:13:11 |
|
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2009 : 15:12:26
|
Sure, lets wait until we get more feedback.
I can confirm that restart is possible. The last start time should be used (last start gate)
The Brauniger/Flytec instruments are the most used, so if we adopt something very similar to this, we should be safe.. The FAI provides the rules, and i dont think they change very often.
Regarding turnpoints, in Norway i believe they are normally downloaded to the instrument/GPS with GPSDump. This program will convert the turnpoints to the proper format (garmin etc). I think..
In Norway it is not common to get a piece of paper with coordinates, they are always given electronically.
|
|
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2009 : 22:07:39
|
From the Compeo manual http://www.brauniger.com/download/COMPEO-plus_manual_fin-06-11-08.pdf
3.5.5.1 EXIT Cylinder
The „WP reached“ signal will be given as soon as the start time is reached and the pilot is inside
the start cylinder. It will also sound if the start time is positive and the pilot is crossing the start cylinder
circumference from outside to inside. In both cases the next active Waypoint will be enabled, in this
case it is Waypoint 2. All calculations and the direction arrows are now related
to Waypoint 2.
If the pilot decides to take the next start gate, he must press the Prev WP key. (Select with WP the submenu Prev/Next WP).
The instrument then enables WP 1 again and will increment the
start time by the preset difference. When the last start gate is
reached, the start time will no longer be increased after pressing of
„Prev. WP key“.
--------
This means that on the Brauniger instrument, the pilot must manually select the next start gate by pressing the Previous WP key, which will reset the countdown. |
Edited by - bo. on 29/11/2009 22:09:14 |
|
|
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2009 : 22:49:41
|
| Compeo, is for sure one of the best and dedicated devices for paragliding competition, I think we should follow what they have on their manuals. That's why I post the manual for the top of the top device. |
|
|
|
parapenT1sta
Pterodattilo
Portugal
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2009 : 11:00:24
|
http://www.postfrontal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3107
quote:
Hi,
Basically, XCSoar had it done pretty well. The discussion on the PG side is on track. Here are my thoughts, some of which have been covered by the PG guys and many (all?) of which are in XCSoar.
STARTS:
- Choose Exit or Entry type (default is "Exit" which means you leave a certain cylinder
- Times: Enter Start Time, then number of starts (integer),then start interval in minutes. If you put in 1400, 3, 15.... You'd get 3 starts, the first start at 1400, next at 1415 and last at 1430.
- Pilots starting at 1400-1414:59 would get a 1400 start time. From 1415 to 1429:59 they'd get the 2nd start time of 1415 and so on.
- Pilots leaving early get the actual time ie. 1357 or 1345
- Pilots leaving later than the last start get the last start (1430 here)
- Cylinder size should be in meters (default) or miles. User selects
- Pilots can "take" a start and then decide to return to the cylinder. The software should then reset their time as if they never left and they get whatever start time is appropriate for their next departure, using the rules outlined above.
- Noise and flashing display user selectable on start
- If Pilot starts, display switches to next WP
- If Pilot re-enters start circle, display switches back to start circle info/waypoint until he leaves again (user selectable if this is automatic or not)
- Countdown clock info box user selectable for each start clock.
TURNPOINTS:
- Cylinders or wedges/pies/arcs/sectors with user selectable angular size and distance. Might be Cylinder, 400 meters. Or Wedge , 400 meters, 45 deg. For Wedges you'd also need orientation relative to courseline in degrees. Default Cylinder, 400m.
- These are "entry" cylinders or wedges always.
- Auto selects next TP when cylinder is punctured.
- Chime and or flashing display marker (user selectable)
FINISH
- May be a Cylinder or a Line. Cylinder default to 1Km and it's entry type always.
- Line would be normally perpendicular to courseline and user selectable distance. Default (???) Maybe 1 Km.
NAVBOXES (user selectable)
- Similar to XCSoar to include
- Time to next Start (countdown)
- Dist to Start Cylinder
- Time of Day
- Distance to Goal
- Alt Req to Goal (Mcready)
- Alt Req to Goal (BG)
- Arrival Altitude At Goal (Mcready)
- Arrival Altitude at Goal (Best Glide)
- Speed to Fly while on course (no wind using average climbs or user selectable climb rates)
- Speed to Fly to Goal (uses wind and last climb auto or user selectable climb. If using last climb auto, allow user selectable interval to average)
SETUP
- should be able to quickly and easily setup waypoints and start finish info.
- VERY IMPORTANT to be able to alter easily and quickly the task after it's initially entered. (HG comps change tasks just before launch often)
- Add/Remove waypoints and or change start times or intervals... plus change start size and or finish size... etc.
UNITS
In general allow user selectable but meters, Feet per minute, miles, Nautical miles, Kilometers, MPH, Knots, KMhr, are good (US comps)
Also, as I recall in XCSoar... sometimes units were too coarse? You could not select a small enough interval... I forget which but try to make
miles: .01 or better
Nm .01 or better
Km .01 or better
Meters 1
Minutes 1
FPM 10 / 50 / 100 (user select)
Kmhr 1
MPH 1
Knots 1
I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of important details...
Take care,
John
|
Edited by - parapenT1sta on 30/11/2009 11:03:06 |
|
|
|
bo.
Pterodattilo
843 Posts |
Posted - 30/11/2009 : 19:55:19
|
Ok, then I think we know how the start gates are working on Brauniger/flytec instruments. Thanks!
I have a suggestion for how to display the countdown. I guess it will appear under the current clock in the upper right hand side?
If we have 3 start gates first one at 1400, with 15 min interval, the countdown should be counting down to 1400, while displaying which start gate that is coming up next. At 1355:30, the coundown could display "1/3 4:30" (gate one of three, 4min 30sec remaining).
At 1400, there should be a popup box (with sound) saying "Start gate 1 of 3 open.", then the countdown to gate 2 should start ("2/3 14:59" at 1400:01). A new popup at 1415:00 displays "Start gate 2 of 3 open." etc. Maybe this should only be displayed if the pilot is inside the start cylinder, and not if the pilot is on his/her way to the next TP.
It would be nice if restart and correct start gate time was managed automatically. But sometimes the task will lead the pilot to enter the start sector later in the task. Of course we dont want the task to be automatically reset at this time. I guess this is taken care of already, since auto restart is possible in LK now. Maybe the start sector is inactivated after TP1 (after start sector) is reached? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Task: Start Gate, Start Time (CLOSED)