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T O P I C    R E V I E W
freitag Posted - 28/07/2013 : 13:05:06
Hello

I had a great flight yesterday in Fiesch, and found a bit of a problem with the LK8000 FAI triangle support. You can find my flight here: http://www.xcontest.org/switzerland/en/flights/detail:jewald/26.7.2013/08:35

The issues I have are:
1. (this came up two weeks ago): The "Draw FAI" setting does not stick. If I set it, and turn off the instrument, I need to re-set it for the next flight. This caused me some trouble two weeks ago, where I only noticed the missing FAI sectors halfway through the flight.
2. If "Draw FAI" is turned on mid-flight, it seems to only consider data from then on, not the whole flight up to that point. So if you notice you forgot to turn it on after the first turnpoint, the support it can provide is not very helpful any more
3. If you simulate the IGC from the flight above, you'll notice the following: While flying from turnpoint 2 to turnpoint 3, first a yellow set of sectors appears. Once I passed launch at Fiesch and fly further west, a light blue set also appears, indicating the bigger FAI triangle possible as I extend the flight to the West. But after a while, this starts switching with another yellow set, further west, for a smaller triangle. Once I reached the second turnpoint, only this yellow set is present, the light blue one does no longer appear. But that's the one I was aiming for: The big, 200+ km Fiesch triangle. I couldn't have done it yesterday anyway, but I'm wondering how I can force LK8000 to show me the "right" sectors in the future.

thanks for your help
Joerg
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
AlphaLima Posted - 25/02/2016 : 16:35:08
"Start on Leg" with 500km transition
AlphaLima Posted - 09/12/2015 : 22:07:17
Good news,
the "Start on Leg" Optimizer option will be standard in the next version.
AlphaLima Posted - 25/05/2015 : 12:17:24
Display 2/3 -> DrawFAI
and
make sure Contest Info 1.5 (Setup page 10 Interface) is ON!
sundancer Posted - 25/05/2015 : 01:02:33
What setting is used to display sectors on map? (not in analysis page)
Cause I recently missed the "real sector" by flying into the one drawn on the map screen, but it was like 5km off. (on PG)
Coolwind Posted - 21/04/2014 : 01:44:31
The calculator was unable to calculate a FAI CLOSE, because it did not consider the "start on leg".
A real bug would be to suggest you a close point that is invalid.

The other issues about seeyou mobile you mention are your own opinions, and I dont agree on them at all (at least two of the three are false, in fact).

Anyway, let alone other software, the reason I cannot merge anything else in the 5.0 is that development for the version is closed.
In a few words: if I merge anything, we delay again the delivery. And this is not possible, too many people waiting already.





Toolish Posted - 21/04/2014 : 00:30:49
Hello Paolo,

when I wrote "fooling you" I also was refering to triangle calculations with start on the leg. In this case the calculations are definitely wrong. I think at least 70% of the triangles flown by paragliders or deltas are started on the leg (some only by a few kilometers, which nevertheless leads to a wrong calculation). So in many of our triangle attempts we get displayed false sectors.

On your feature site is written:

"FAI Triangle optimizer in real time, and we also create a virtual waypoint for you to close the triangle!"

and not: FAI Triangle optimizer for start on the turnpoint only [...]

I also can give you an example for a wrong calculation with start on the turnpoint:
http://xc.dhv.de/xc/modules/leonardo/index.php?name=leonardo&op=show_flight&flightID=419175





The right sector is displayed very late, when you are inside it for a long time. The screenshot was made at that moment:



If you want to verify it I can send you the igc-file.


Please donīt get me wrong - I donīt want to offend you. LK8000 is really a superb and very elaborate software! You do a great job and I understand that itīs your first goal to create a stable version. You are the boss and I have to say exactly nothing! ;-)

I only want to convince you that it really would make sense to fix that bug (yes for me itīs a bug - not one that is crashing LK8000 but a faulty calculation). The testing version is calculating perfectly now and is already existing.

I know many xc paragliders using seeyoumobile mainly because of the airspace display, the triangle calculator and the valid igc-file. Regarding the triangle calculator thereīs no alternative for paragliders to sym at the moment. Thatīs the reason why there are so many oudie 2 and 3 sold out there.

Best regards
Stefan
Coolwind Posted - 20/04/2014 : 00:38:53
Stefan, I have absolutely no evidences that once the FAI assistant in 4.0 is giving a FAI CLOSE point, it is not real.
My experience with FAI CLOSE is 100% positive, on OLC at least.
We had 0 (zero) error feedback for FAI triangles during 2013. Yours is the first.
The start on leg can be an enhancement, but from my point of view there is no bug in 4.0 for start on turnpoint.

Now there are only two chances: 1) nobody is using fai assistant (less than 10%, probably 2%) and thus nobody cares to report it. or
2) there is no problem.

So I think your statement "without fooling you as the actual assistant often does" should be proved.
Simply I dont believe that the FAI triangle calculator we are using has given you a "FAI CLOSE" points that has fooled you.
Not even once, not to mention "often".




Toolish Posted - 20/04/2014 : 00:08:04
Weīre surely planning our triangles at home (http://www.xcplanner.appspot.com/) all the winter long.

For example:
http://xcplanner.appspot.com/?l=leonardo&p=%7Bv%7C%7CGkzrhAsvHquELonHg%5DgoE%7Bn%40eyD_%7BCeaKySotEaBmrKca%40sg%5Co%7CC%7BuMokAy_%40qdAisAzxRtisBxsCxdT~Ehf%5C%7C%5Dp%7BLui%40znQckBbqLkjAroZawJrqWfcYmyaAjfEcmVn%60Ba%7D%40v%5Dw%60Gt~A%7BdFxrDykCvcC%7BpLhlBqaBpkC%7DtExbAu_DzmFpmCj%60Mq%7DCuzXuqDeg%5D%7DrRsp%40lhH&s=25.0&a=0

Weīre much more dependend of contour lines / ridges where we have some lift to fly faster in dolphin style. If I had l/d=60 I also would choose the direct line and fly proper triangles ;-). Sometimes itīs not so easy to reach a sector, because weīre late, the conditions change (wind, overdevelopment) or simply because the itīs out in the valley. We only want to go there and touch it and then turn around.
In air we often can only guess where the sector is located and if weīre already in it or not. Itīs a big advantage to have an optical device, that is working reliable, without fooling you as the actual assistant often does (if you want I can send you an igc file).

Hereīs an actual extreme example for what I mean:

http://www.xcontest.org/world/en/flights/detail:alois08/7.4.2014/08:37







Flat triangle 204km would have been 356 Points
FAI triangle 204km is 408 Points

In the last testversion with the new triangle assistant you only have to choose between "start on turnpoint" and "start on leg". You can do that before start and itīs not a big deal to do that in the air (even for a paraglider). The calculation is now perfect and in all simulated flights the sectors were always on the right spot. To have that feature in a betaversion would make many paraglider, delta and even glider pilots happy. I think there are many other existing features which are used by less than the triangle will be used by ;-)

Best regards
Stefan
AlphaLima Posted - 19/04/2014 : 14:04:46
Sorry guys,
I had the same wrong assumptions in the beginning but there are some good reasons. Especially Paragliders are more dependent on weather and topology. These guys much more often need to change the plans. Some of them sent me IGCs which indicating that they failed an FAI just by some km. Quite frustrating!
But one point that was really missing was the "Start on Leg" and I added that as it was not too much work to do. A lot of the Paras triangles start on a leg due to their prominent start position in the middle along a long valley.

But also for gliders the FAI assistant can help to extend an existing task if weather and time left as you can see in my video. Or if you have to abort a too optimistic task you can still make the best out of it, with the optimizer. Something I quite often did using SYM and what was really missing in LK. Initially I did not support “the start on leg” because it needs user selection and I personally prefer to start on a turnpoint, because it makes it easier to extend the FAI after a task is completed. If you look to the response in the Forum I doubt it is less than 10%, pilots aiming for max. OLC points, even under changing weather conditions want this.
In competitions we quite often fly AAT, with the optimizer you may be able to fly an FAI within an AAT. Quite honorable, isn’t it? Something you cannot plan in advance.
And there is no problem, as some interested pilots can test my trail version in parallel in order to minimize the risks for a stable 5.0. That’s what I told them from the beginning! But they are so happy with this change that they want to have it as soon as possible because the forked version does not make valid IGC of course.

Concerning safety I believe, if the pilot does not have such assistant they will gaze even longer on the moving map to determine his options. Or will use another software alternatively.
If you test the optimizer, you will be amazed how easy you can archive a FAI even out of very wired flight tracks, quite motivating!
regards
Ulli

Coolwind Posted - 19/04/2014 : 12:09:57
Of course the actual FAI calculator does not crash the software! Nothing in the current beta and next 5.0 is crashing the software.

I have made in the past 12 months a lot of flights using LK to calculate the FAI triangle, and it works.
Last two flights of mine (410 FAI and 325 FAI) were made using LK during the flight, I dont see big problems.
(The FAI triangle calculator is using our contest engine made three years ago by Mateusz, it is not an independent piece of software.)

Using the FAI assistant during the flight is quite tricky, and requires a good "knowledge" of what you are actually looking at on the screen. You need also a quiet flight phase, to understand and read the screen, and change some display options to visualize the FAI sectors better.
In a glider, it is borderline. In a paraglider, I doubt it is.
But the culprit here is that for small FAI triangles the FAI assistant is quite good, while for bigger FAI triangles a planning is necessary, and required in advance.
Flying a 500km FAI triangle is quite complicated without a planned route in advance, because the position of turnpoints will make it almost impossible to be achieved, while flying in mountain areas at least. In flat lands it is another story, but France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria,and many other conutries are NOT flat lands areas. So let's consider real conditions.
I have flown some 400 FAI unplanned, thanks to LK. But I had planned at least two turnpoints out of three.

I think this feature is for less than 10% of pilots using LK. Much less.





KarmaGianni Posted - 18/04/2014 : 22:19:53
Not to bother you all, just a bit of curiosity: can you please explain me the reason of flying a NOT DECLARED Fai triangle?
I mean, the FAI triangles badges or records are valid only if the pilots declares them before the take off. That means he has planty of time to study, plan, draw, save the task. And he can do this at home by many softwares and devices... why the heck you need to do this in flight, with gloves, with little screens? And please don't tell me OLC Plus rules and score is the reason to spend time improoving the sw and spend a single second in flight doing this instead of looking around for safety...
s.dietmar Posted - 18/04/2014 : 22:00:53
The actual FAI calculator does not crash the software, but the algorithm calculates sometimes "something". Now the question, is it a bug or not. In my oppinion, yes, its a big bug. More then the half of my FAIs was calculated false. A false calculation is much worse as no FAI calculator. So i am realy happy, that AlphaLima spent a lot of time to bugfix the calculator.
The main reasons, why i fly with LK8000: I have a valid record as backup, a screen with airspaces and a FAI calculator. The priority should be a stable version, but i hope that the bugfixed calculator also comes as soon as possible.
A big thank to all programmers, who spent her time for LK8000. Good job.
And yes, i'm paraglider, who flies tracks like a star or a pentatlon an will have a calculation of a triangle ;-) the world is sometimes complicated.
Best regards,
Didi
parapenT1sta Posted - 14/04/2014 : 23:38:18
quote:
Originally posted by m-a-r-t-i-n

I cannot see directly all the work of the great development team, but I can see that there is one test version delivered after the other. So I think it is really time for the developers to enjoy their software as well during the flying season!

I think the FAI calculator improvement is really very important for paraglider and hang glider users, but I fully understand that has to wait...

best regards,
Martin


I agree 100% with you!

m-a-r-t-i-n Posted - 14/04/2014 : 19:38:48
I cannot see directly all the work of the great development team, but I can see that there is one test version delivered after the other. So I think it is really time for the developers to enjoy their software as well during the flying season!

I think the FAI calculator improvement is really very important for paraglider and hang glider users, but I fully understand that has to wait...

best regards,
Martin
Toolish Posted - 14/04/2014 : 10:08:26
I donīt think itīs a fork. You also could simply call it a bug that the triangle assistant was calculating wrong sectors on nearly all triangles we fly ;-)
We asked him pretty often to correct this - again and again and again. ;-)

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